<p>Collegemom:
Here is what I wrote:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Did you miss the part about DRINKING RESPONSIBLY? Where did I write that parents should teach their kids not to drink at all? You are not reading between the lines. Rather, you’re not reading the lines.</p>
<p>sarahsmom42: Guess what was wrong with your post? You made a couple of points about things that suck but on a population scale have good reasons behind them, and then used that to justify the drinking age, which on a population scale is not only disconnected from the ages of all kinds of other things, but also lacks a really good reason.</p>
<p>Also: I come from Canada, where I can drink now, and resent the implication that somehow my actions become a “bad decision” when I cross into the US. Give me a break.</p>
<p>shoebox, You sound quite responsible and it’s good that you drink in moderation. Unfortunately many are not and they are deadly dangerous to themselves and others. </p>
<p>MomOfWild, I didn’t make up the law or the numbers that supported it. Just because your kid has a fake ID & his buddies do too (IVY OR NOT) doesn’t mean that it’s smart or that it justifies lowering the drinking age. Should it be 25? No. I personally think that 21 is just right. Are you disputing that drinking is bad for the underdeveloped brain?</p>
<p>Marite you are 100% correct. I read your post too quickly and not carefully enough, I’m sorry. I think you and I are fairly close to being on the same page.</p>
<p>I couldn’t help but notice during 2 day/1 night “parent and student orientation” that my son’s college wants to have it “both ways.” </p>
<p>On one hand, they liked to stress that the student is “an adult” and legally doesn’t have to disclose grades, etc, to parents. They made it clear that parents are supposed to “back off” and let these adults run their own lives. We were told to “butt out” when it comes to picking/registering for classes. </p>
<p>On the other hand, when financial issues were discussed (tuition, room, board, books, spending money), these “adults” quickly became “our children,” and we (the parents) were told about how we were going to be billed, how we could add money to our “child’s” school card (act like a debit card), etc. We were all walked over to the on-campus Credit Union to set up the accounts (and transfer money) for our children. These “adults” were getting younger by the dollar sign. </p>
<p>Frankly, I don’t view parent-supported college students as adults. I view them as “young adults” or “future adults” or maybe “almost adults” - but not full-fledged adults. Full-fledged adults either financially support themselves or provide “in kind” support (such as what housewives do). Full-fledged adults don’t get to 'run their own lives" on someone else’s dollar.</p>
<p>Besides as we are now learning, the part of the brain that makes logical and reasonable decisions (uses foresight) does not stop growing until age 25 - which is why “adults” ages 18 - 25 make more dangerous decisions than adults over the age of 25. .</p>
<p>I know this is a bit “off topic”, but my point is that with this NYT article, colleges may now be realizing that parents need to be more than just wallets and checkbooks.</p>
<p>Sarahsmom- I agree that excessive drinking is bad. Period. I also believe that the horse is out of the barn. I think your rose colored glasses have some smudges on them.</p>
<p>I always say that if one is mature enough to get married or to join the armed services at 18 (pretty serious decisions), one is mature enough to have a legal drink.</p>
<p>P.S. If you actually READ what I wrote, you will see that I was referring to fake IDs in the dorm on MOVE-IN day. These are not my son’s “buddies”. This is a pretty random group of freshmen (last year). I would never present my kid’s “buddies” as a fair sample (fortunately).</p>
<p>sarahsmom,
When I was in college, I did not drink like you are suggesting (“If they are not mature enough to make intelligent choices about something as simple as “should I or shouldn’t I drink until I’m puking”, maybe they don’t belong at college. In my opinion, they don’t and colleges should be spending their time and money on the kids who are mature enough to be there.”).</p>
<p>I was a moderate, occasional drinker. Before I hit 18, I had consumed alcohol as well (even my parents allowed us to have wine when we were 16). Saying that I would have benefitted from being kicked out of school is like saying I would have benefitted from getting pregnant. People don’t benefit from getting expelled from school- whether it’s high school, college, trade school, grad school. It’s just not a good thing.</p>
<p>Edit, I think your confounding responsible drinking with binge drinking- and putting all those behaviors in the same category.</p>
<p>Doubleplay, I’m not confounding responsible drinking w/binge drinking and putting all those behaviors in the same category. WE serve wine with meals and we encouraged our kids to drink with us on vacation in Mexico this summer because we want them to learn about personal limits in a safe setting. The point is that they were WITH US and they were not BREAKING ANY LAWS. After they’d had a few drinks, we didn’t say “Hey, why don’t you girls go check out the clubs and pick up some guys.” We talked until 2:00 a.m., listened and participated in some really bad karaoke and SUFFERED the next morning at our windsurfing lessons! (We had already paid for the windsurfing, so we insisted that we all go. Another “lesson”)</p>
<p>You don’t know if you would have benefited from getting kicked out of school and neither do I. I DID get pregnant at age 22, married my boyfriend and have been married for 20 years. It didn’t ruin my life. </p>
<p>The point is that freedoms come with responsibility. Actions have consequences. We learn from taking responsibilty for our actions and we are better people for it.</p>
<p>Kids die every year from binge drinking. The price is high for the students, the families and the colleges. Is it fair that some stupid kids ruin it for everyone, no, but lots of things are not fair. Fair is a crock of s—! Is it fair that I have to pay higher tuition because some parents sued the school when their son died from alcohol poisoning? No.</p>
<p>MomOfWild, </p>
<pre><code> I choose not to look at the smudges if they are there. I just try to focus on the good, and I grew up w/horses. Once they are out, it can be hard to get them back in, but if you have something they want, they’ll come.
</code></pre>
<p>I liked the approach of my son’s college. At orientation, they talked about all of these issues and said that they would obey the privacy laws, but if they knew our kids were in serious trouble, they’d move heaven and earth to persuade our kids to phone home and tell us. I know they can’t prevent all tragedies, but I left feeling that they really cared about their students and would use any safety net they legally could. I felt they were inviting us to be partners in this next stage of development–more distant partners, but still involved.</p>
<p>I am not a horse person, but are you all saying that when a horse gets out of the barn, it’s NOT allowed to run free indefinitely and efforts ARE made to rein it back in so it does not run wild?</p>
<p>I don’t drink. It’s a personal choice that started out for medical reasons, but I think I’d make the same choice even without my medical problems. </p>
<p>Even though I don’t try to impose my choice on other people, alcohol has become an issue in my life. Not drinking makes my social life difficult – I guess you might say that other people often impose their choices about alcohol on me, directly or indirectly. I get along fine where there’s some drinking, but things don’t work for me when the scale tips over into a lot of people around me being drunk (whether it’s at a party or running through the halls outside my room in my dorm). College often seems to be “about” drinking. From what I can tell, that seems pretty universal (except maybe at some commuter colleges and some faith-based colleges). </p>
<p>If you are a parent, you should accept that it is a reality that most American campuses are awash in alcohol. Maybe it just hits me more clearly because I’m always sober, but I can’t ignore how ubiquitous the problems are. I see a lot of scary things on a routine basis (DUI, vomiting, alcohol poisoning, casual hook-ups with strangers, property destruction, etc.). What’s even scarier, as I think about it, is that I saw a lot of same stuff in high school, just on a somewhat reduced, more guarded and less public scale.</p>
<p>I don’t know what the solutions are. We need to keep people safe. We need to be sure that we don’t make problems worse by pushing them underground (“pre-gaming” before “alcohol free” or age-carded events is a huge and apparently growing problem). Selfishly, I wish we could also make more of a place for nondrinkers and light drinkers by diminishing the role of alcohol in the campus social structure, but that’s the least of the problems.</p>
<p>Please keep talking and thinking and trying to find solutions. If you are a parent of a high school or college student, please recognize that alcohol abuse is one of the greatest threats your child faces, and keep trying to come up with a strategy that will help support your child in getting through these years safely. Don’t give up and settle for just hoping it will come out okay. Don’t assume that the school will intervene or will be able to protect your child.</p>
<p>If I had child who was, say, ten years old, I think I might be starting to talk about these issues with other parents and with my child. From what I can tell, alcohol-related concerns need to be on the radar screen and on the table from junior high on, regardless of whether or when a child starts drinking. That even goes for nondrinkers. Recently, I have been reaching out to my parents for the first time for support and social advice for dealing with the problems I encounter because I don’t drink. It has helped. We all wish we’d started talking about this earlier. They were so preoccupied with my medical problems when I was younger that it never occurred to them.</p>
<p>FarmFresh</p>
<p>I’ve heard this from so many kids. It can take some time to find your non-drinking peer group, but I’m quite sure it’s out there somewhere. I encouraged my son to start right in with some EC’s to build in someactivities that don’t center on drunken partying. Good luck!</p>
<p>scansmom,
A few sugar cubes and apple halves worked for me. Horses are expensive and incredible animals. It’s worth the effort to entice them back into the barn.
When I was ten, one of our horses got out of his pen and got into the seed corn. He ate and ate because it was there and it was YUMMY. Well, the results were not pretty. Was I the one who left the pen unlatched, no, but I the suffered the consequences right along with the one who did.
I could go on for an hour about blaming others, forgiveness, coping with loss, dealing with consequences, but you get it.</p>
<p>“I do agree with those who think the drinking age should be lowered to 18. The drinking age was raised because of DUI’s, and this hasn’t been a particularly affective strategy.”</p>
<p>Would you like the data? It was the single most effective public health measure of the past 30 years (other than, perhaps, anti-smoking campaigns, and having babies sleep on their backs). And there is excellent data on the subject - because neighboring states changed their drinking ages in different years, it was possible to do direct comparisons state next to state.</p>
<p>“So what are we really worried about here? That our kids may have had an alcoholic drink under the age of 21?”</p>
<p>It’s not clear what the colleges are worried about, or what their goals are, and because objectives are unclear, the strategies are muddled. What they all seem to have in common is a quest to find a way out from the burden of liability (at which they are failing). Besides that, some would like to curb binge drinking. Some would like to get binge drinking off campus. Some would like to hand the problem off to local law enforcement. Some would simply like to avoid high-profile campus rapes, or the total number of rapes and sexual assaults, or accidents (and dealing with drinking is merely a means to an end). Some want to lower the profile of drinking (without offending tailgating alumni). Some want better integration between the classroom side of the college experience and what goes on outside the classroom. Some want to educate about the long-term dangers attached to heavy drinking.</p>
<p>The point is that each of these could best be served by a different strategy, and some of these strategies are in conflict with each other.</p>
<p>FarmFresh, Do you like sports or working out or theatre? There are kids out there who are like you, you’ll find them, just keep joining clubs or whatever until you do. Good luck.</p>
<p>mini, Please do show us the data!!!</p>
<p>I don’t know exactly what mini’s data shows, but based on previous threads, I suspect it shows that the # of those dying in alcohol-related traffic accidents is down. Yes, that’s a good thing.</p>
<p>But I don’t think the percentage of students who drink and the percentage of them who binge drink has gone down. In fact, anecdotal evidence suggests that more students binge drink now than when the drinking age was 21. </p>
<p>I once read an interesting study that analyzed college students’ drinking habits before and after Prohibition. Now, college students then were very different than those today—most were middle class or above white males.</p>
<p>The study showed that the percentage of folks who imbibed stayed quite steady. However, the amount of students who did what we would call binging today was much higher during Prohibition. </p>
<p>This supports my gut reaction. There is a lot of drinking on most college campuses. But the amount varies. When strict anti-drinking laws are enforced, the social lives of drinkers and non-drinkers occur in two very different worlds. When the rules are not enforced, drinkers and non-drinkers socialize together. Fewer kids binge drink. That’s in part because I think that many kids do tend to drink to the “norm.” May sound bizarre but if everyone at a party drinks to the falling down drunk stage, then more kids at the party drink to the falling down drunk stage. If there are a number of kids at the party who don’t drink at all or who nurse one beer all night, then fewer kids drink to the falling down drunk stage.</p>
<p>Personally, I think what one cruise line does is ideal. You can drink beer and wine at 18. You have to be 21 for the hard stuff. Yes, you can get very drunk on beer and wine. Yes, some people become alcoholics on beer and wine. However, it is very hard to die of alcohol poisoning on just beer and wine.</p>