I hear you, reposting any kind of message to TikTok with giggling seems unprofessional to me. “Your mom is in my DMs” just reminds me of all the social media snark and weaponization that I dislike among teens (and others). Like calling someone a Karen on social media. It is not about (for me) whether the person is a client. It is about the snark.
3 Likes
I hear you about disliking snark.
I didn’t take that as snark, but rather Mr. Teahen demonstrating there are many ways to react/respond to anyone reaching out in an unproductive way. I don’t think laughter is a bad response to an unhinged DM accusing you of something you didn’t do to people you don’t know.
Just goes to show how differently we each can interpret the same situation.
2 Likes
I don’t really know how this works on a practical basis. Even how a therapist asks questions can and does convey judgement and opinion which might feel like ‘advice’ to a client.
“Is their behavior ‘toxic’ or merely annoying?” isn’t a neutral question (in the article with advice from Ms. Tawwab).
You’re allowed to choose not to have personal relationships with people you find “merely” annoying. You don’t need to justify your choice to have a personal relationship or not with someone needing to be “toxic” in order to step back from the relationship.
3 Likes
On a practical basis, I don’t think good therapists tell someone who is struggling at work with an obnoxious boss to “step back” or to quit their job. It’s neither judgement nor opinion for the therapist to ask “how did you feel when the boss told you that you were a moron?” and then to suggest a role playing exercise so the patient is empowered to say “it’s unprofessional for you to use that word with me. You can disagree with decisions I make without calling me names and I expect to be treated respectfully going forward”.
Based on the online publicity that these therapists are cultivating (I just read some of their stuff) their “brand” is “I’m mad as hell so I’m taking my ball and going home”, and not “let’s learn how to deal with obnoxious people in a productive way so my life is less stressful”.
3 Likes
I think there is a substantive difference when talking about work relationships (where we’ve all had to deal with people we don’t like and learn how to do that) and personal relationships - where we can choose who gets our time and energy.
3 Likes
People get to do whatever they want in life. Of course, their choices have repercussions. I think it’s okay to choose to cut off family members if you want to do that. However, in getting to the point where you feel that is best for you, it is wise to make that decision yourself … not to be convinced by others that you should do it. Supporting a choice is not the same as encouraging the choice. I would not want a therapist who suggests choices, but rather one who helps me consider my options and assists me in navigating the choices I make. Vulnerable people can be manipulated, and therapists should not project their own issues onto vulnerable people.
4 Likes
I agree. But therapy isn’t like bandaging a scraped knee. It is not unusual for someone who had trouble navigating family relationships to also have trouble with roommates, romantic partners, coworkers, etc. It’s a common pattern-- especially for people who have suffered abusive childhoods. So a therapist who focuses on the toolkits- how to recognize when something or someone has crossed the line, and how to manage that situation-- is going to help with family of origin, current friends and family, colleagues and bosses, etc.
That’s what’s missing from the “cutting off” movement. The ability to learn how to navigate the OTHER problematic relationships… you can’t cut off everyone at work who aggravates/intimidates/upsets you.
3 Likes
I thought of this thread when talking today to a friend who started therapy for the first time this week (at my suggestion). As is often the case, this initial scratching at the scab has caused all sorts of angst, but she is determined to stick with it.
Interestingly, I never knew some of her back story. She was, in fact, estranged from her mom for many years, IMO, for good reason. But time and maturity and necessity have brought them back together, and the relationship is stronger than it’s ever been. I guess I don’t have a lot of judgment around people feeling like they need a break from family or others. Sometimes, time apart is what’s needed for the eventual happy/happier ending.
7 Likes
Another perspective could be that bosses who call employees morons are being abusive. Period. And it’s ok for a therapist to point that out directly rather than beat around the bush with "How did that make you feel? followed by a role playing exercise that gives the message that it’s the employee’s job to communicate just right if she wants her boss to stop verbally abusing her.
The therapist instead could say “Calling employees morons is something that bosses got away with in the old days, but it doesn’t fly anymore. This is the sort of thing that is well within your rights to report to HR.” And then some practical info about how to go about that if desired, along with other options.
4 Likes
I’m not exactly sure how we get from one idea to the other? There are lots of people who have problematic personal relationships who are considered rock stars at work (and vice versa). Compartmentalization is alive and well.
I haven’t seen any article or reporting that shows any connection between people estranged from family members having more difficulty navigating work relationships? If someone has information showing that connection, I’d be interested in seeing it.
2 Likes
IMO (and IME), the kind of toxicity that results in people cutting off relationships goes well beyond “aggravation, intimidation and upset”. It sounds to me like you are lucky enough to have never experienced a truly toxic family relationship if that is your assessment.
Moreover, work colleagues in almost all instances simply do not have the ability to permanently damage your private life or your psyche the way that a close family member might and, as pointed out above, there are other ways to deal with coworkers - which might actually involve HR cutting them out of your life if they’re bad enough.
3 Likes
I think there’s also a difference in estrangements and what you may or may not be able to draw as conclusions about the people involved. Some people might have generally loving relationships with most family members but be estranged from one. Others might be estranged from most or all of their family members. I have to think there are different dynamics in play here and the latter would be more likely to have problematic relationships in general -whether at work or anywhere else - than the former.
1 Like
I haven’t seen any data showing such a connection either.
I suppose there are some people who just can’t get along with others and blame everybody but themselves. But I think it is wrong to assume that most people who have cut off family members suffer from that problem.
The two people I know best who have cut off family relationships have healthy relationships with coworkers, friends and their remaining family members. Neither of them have trouble with people in general or trouble dealing with “strong personalities.” They don’t demand perfection, they just won’t stand for abuse.
7 Likes
I have spent a lot of time around contemporary artists, and some have turned to art as a way to deal with their problems. I know a couple who have cut ties with their families, whoo boy, was it ever warranted. Sexual abuse that is overlooked in a household is 100% reason to cut ties. These victims don’t necessarily have issues getting along with others, but trust is certainly an issue.
3 Likes
An article about forgiveness that seemed germane to this conversation. Should be gift link:
4 Likes
My DiL was the child of a single mom – we first met the mom as an accomplished, articulate, proud mother who supported her daughter in all things. She had a career as a teacher and had friends and colleagues. Seemed eccentric but lovely.
As time went on, we began to see the gaslighting, the sabotage, the suffocating attention. DiL signed a paper promising to let her mother live with, or next to, her forever. Also included was a section about how the wedding would look and what DiL would inherit. DiL was ten years old at the time.
Things escalated as DiL entered college. Mom “forgot” to do paperwork for housing but threatened to sue the U; wouldn’t pay bills, we helped DiL set up a bank account of her own and helped put her thru grad school. My son was remonstrated early and often about not getting the daughter pregnant — a regular topic of conversation. The verbal abuse about grades, etc continued. Finances were always in question and always a problem.
She called me daily, once they were engaged , to discuss her daugter’s “mental instability” and my take on what should be done. She was upset to discover we were paying for most of the wedding; she freely admitted she wanted to pay $2K bc “that’s all she is worth” and walked out of the rehearsal. Spent the morning of the wedding banging on doors to bother the bridesmaids. But on the surface she seemed perfectly normal. My DiL has many happy and ordinary childhood memories.
Soon after the marriage, when this woman was unable to maintain phone conversations without becoming abusive (my son would answer, remind her of their rules, she would violate them, he would hang up), she started showing up at their apartment complex, hollering in the parking lot until they appeared. That was when they cut off all contact. My son would call once a month and she was always impossible. She called the police on them. (The police scolded the kids for not living closer) She refused any and all help. She filed lawsuits accusing them of not supporting her financially – they were 22. She died alone, in her house, having destroyed it beyond repair as the hoarding took over, leaving DiL to manage the estate AND the well meaning people who kept saying platitudes about love, mothers, and grief.
We never know what goes on in a family. I think cutting off people is a radical step, but I also know now that sometimes it is the only choice left if someone wants to save themselves.
21 Likes
You have alluded to the woman’s issues in the past, but I think that this is the first time you’ve shared details. Thank goodness your DIL found your S & your family. Cutting herself off was the only option for her. This situation is an example of why people need to understand that there is often a lot you don’t know about another person’s life.
12 Likes
I don’t love that psychologist in the article, but found the test and the article interesting.
Spouse scored 35 on that Toxic Family Systems Test. I scored 70. We’ve known each other’s families forever, and agreed on the other’s answers.
We have a great relationship with spouse’s family. There’s a few issues that we’ve had to navigate carefully and with intention (homophobia, anyone?), but I’d say we’re all very close and get along great.
In contrast, my sibling and I have been very low contact with our parents for ~15 years (we’d often go months without communicating). This was a deliberate choice on our part, and was done gradually and with the full cooperation and support of our spouses, and help from therapists. My sibling was experiencing great harm from parental interactions, and we jumped on board without hesitation to protect her. It ended up benefitting me and my kids as well.
Sibling and I set strict boundaries, but didn’t communicate most of them explicitly to our parents. Our mom crosses the mostly unspoken boundaries only occasionally, which is great. I think she senses that we’d withdraw if she crossed the line more. Because of this, we are perfectly cordial and there are no conflicts. It works so well for my sibling and me and allows us to maintain a relationship with mom without a ton of emotional angst.
However, if my mom still behaved the way she used to when we were kids, we’d be no contact for sure. Funny enough, the strategies my sibling and I used to accomplish our very functional parental détente are precisely what is recommended based on the results of the Toxic Family Test:
“Therapy for childhood trauma and additional support such as group therapy or support groups. Explore resources in setting boundaries with family system of origin for improved mental health, autonomy, self-protection, and empowerment. Seeking guidance on creating distance or going no contact is warranted.”
During grad school I saw an amazing therapist at the student health center. He helped me not to keep stuffing my anger down out of fear, but to embrace it and see it as a tool. He convinced me that it was possible and even essential to hold complex feelings at the same time: you can and should be angry at your dad for abusing your sibling, while also loving the great things about your dad. That therapist changed my life in ways that are still reverberating, and will forever.
In creating distance between us and our parents, us kids have been able to move past the incredible hurt into a place of letting-go. But that required confronting the pain head-on in the process. We can now see our parents more as people and less as parents – with all their own complexities and scars and love and problems – and have compassion for them as people. Yes, we’re detached from them, but that distance has allowed us to heal immensely from the wounds of our childhood. We do truly care for and want the best for our parents. But our ability to bend over backwards to make sure our parents are getting what they need is only possible because we’ve cut nearly all the emotional ties. What we are left with is mostly genuine goodwill toward them as fellow humans.
Which makes me sad for me and my sibling. This was brought into stark relief when I had my own kids. I am so grateful for my in-laws.
6 Likes
This topic was automatically closed 180 days after the last reply. If you’d like to reply, please flag the thread for moderator attention.