NYTimes on Penn and the hook-up scene

Parent Cafe
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<p>I really think Ema and I live in two different worlds lol (which we probably do since she’s in more of a professional-type work place and I’m in a non-profit workplace). I’m getting married at 24 and no one has said a peep about it. My coworkers (people ranging from younger than mid to mid 60s) are thrilled and have had nothing but kind words. In our families, no one has questioned it. Friends? Not a word (and we have the blunt kind of friends who would be the first to say something). </p>

<p>I went from one long-term relationship right to another. Never had an interest in casual sex or dating. No one’s said anything to me about it. I know a LOT of people that got married right out of college (I’ve been to probably 10 weddings in the last two months). </p>

<p>I agree that women aren’t willing to rush into marriage- but why should they be? We have far less pressure in our generation to marry whoever you’re living with (cohabitation is perfectly acceptable when it was still iffy even a generation or so ago) and the ring by spring culture is nearly gone. </p>

<p>However, the median first marriage age in the US has only risen by about 3-4 years in the last 100 years. Considering that more women go to college now than ever before, it seems that attitudes haven’t changed that much (ie get married 3-4 years out of school… it’s just that graduation age has changed).</p>

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<p>Is UPenn really the place that’s most representative of college women? </p>

<p>Perhaps if the NYTimes had chosen a school with less of a skew toward such hyper-driven, hyper-scheduled, overly prognosticating, failure-averse young women, the results of their anecdotal scare-mongering might seem more balanced. </p>

<p>I do agree with earlier posters, though, that the trend towards hook-ups and the objectification it engenders (how many of the girls in the article talked about wanting to hook up with “hot guys” they couldn’t stand to be with sober, etc.?) is troubling. What it comes down to is fear of emotional pain. “Why should I get into a relationship when I might have to confront the matter of ending it over work, geography, any number of hypothetical reasons?” These women are so used to having had their lives planned that they think they can continue to do so well into adulthood. Young women–and men–avoid commitment because it might not last. Well, dealing with the pain of break-ups IS part of life, important for learning the skills to deal with all sorts of pain life sends your way.</p>

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<p>I find this to be completely ridiculous… just because someone has sex doesn’t mean they don’t have a conscience or are incapable of caring about others… yikes.</p>

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<p>@soccerguy I agree with you. I found the entire post to be ridiculous and over dramatic.</p>

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<p>I disagree. Having frequent sex with strangers or people one doesn’t like is an indicator of one’s character and one’s ability to form healthy relationships. I think it’s at least as bad as abandoning a pet or refusing to recycle. If we found out that there was an entire community of people who didn’t care about the environment and refused to recycle, we would have no problem saying that this was worrisome. Lots of parents here spend a lot of time worrying about their kids’ inability to get along with roommates – suggesting that this is a sign of character. Most of us tried to raise kids who weren’t quitters – who stuck with the team all season, made it through the hard class, didn’t abandon the team when they needed us. Shouldn’t students be expected to demonstrate at least this level of care and responsibility in the sexual arena? I’m not saying that ‘just because someone has sex’ – but I think it’s the fact that we’d be more concerned about someone who regularly binge drank than we would about someone who occasionaly had a beer; we’d be concerned about someone who had multiple abortions This article clearly focussed on the excessive nature of this behavior – people going to great lengths to avoid intimacy and caring relationships. THat can’t be good for the individuals or society.</p>

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<p>The fact that you compared abandoning a pet and refusing to recycle is just mindboggling to me. </p>

<p>Yes, both are bad but one is almost 100% likely to sentence an innocent living being that depends on you for EVERYTHING to death. </p>

<p>I truly didn’t read past that because that is incomprehensible to me.</p>

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Wait…what?</p>

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To be honest, romani, it didn’t get any more understanding after that…</p>

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<p>I find it incredibly annoying when people, who have no real philosophical basis for their ethics, think they have the right to just assert their moral beliefs as true and then act incredulous when they are slightly questioned. “Innocent living beings” are killed all the time: plants, oysters, slugs, cows. But if it’s cute and cuddly, all of a sudden the moral righteousness kicks in</p>

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<p>What part of “to me” was not clear to you?</p>

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<p>I didn’t come here initially to say this, but refusing to recycle, abandoning a pet and casual sex do not, to me, all fall in the same category.</p>

<p>What I did want to say is that I did the marry at over 30 and have a kid later thing, and it was not really what I would have wanted. Having a kid later can mean infertility and treatments and for some no kids at all. I was lucky to have one. I never found someone to marry until after 30, but I would have gladly gone with someone at 21 or25 or anywhere before 30. I went to law school, MBA, had a big career for a while, etc. etc.
I don’t really believe that the women choose to have “hookup buddies” over a real relationship. </p>

<p>I think the idea of casual sex is driven by the men’s level of maturity (or lack thereof), and the women go along with it. I think most would prefer someone who asks them to coffee or dinner or whatever, but when they don’t find it too often, rather than be alone or just with women, they go with whatever male companionship is available. JMHO. Also, it is just the women who deal with the issue of reputation or even for that matter, saving their virginity. How many guys want to save their virginity? A few religious ones for sure, but others? really? </p>

<p>I think that society may have progressed in that many more choices are available to women, but I still think when it comes to relationships and dating, it really is the men who make the vast majority of the offers. Yes, today a woman can ask a man out, and he may say yes and he may even like it, but I think it is hard to get away from thousands of years of imprinted behavior of the man being the one to initiate courtship. Women can say no, that is no date, no sex, no relationship, no marriage etc, but how many women really are the ones to make the proposal etc.? Yes, it happens, I agree, but no where near equally. </p>

<p>I would like to think that the sons of women of my generation are more open to more equal relationships, but I have no son, and I really don’t know the young men all that well. I think people could have taught their sons to treat women with respect, and that they still would see nothing wrong with casual sex.</p>

<p>I think that much of fraternity life encourages casual hookups, and at colleges where there are fraternities, this is a common theme. Yes, the greeks do have relationships too, and independents do hook up, but something about a group of guys living together, having alcohol and women, and later bragging about increases the behavior. IMHO.</p>

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<p>I have sons, mid 20s, and this is what I see with them and their friends: couples where both partners are highly educated with many professional opportunities available, though not necessarily in the same geographic area. Unless one partner is willing to settle for a position that doesn’t necessarily open the most doors long term, it may be difficult to actually live together. Even for my generation, more often than not it was women adjusting their professional goals to accommodate family life. (of course, not always!) If a young woman has decided she wants the best career opportunities and family life, she is going to have to be very selective in her choice of partner. Spending time looking for that partner can be time consuming. Waiting to look till you end up where you think you’re staying may make sense.</p>

<p>For a young woman in that situation, I can understand why she may decide to delay starting a serious relationship but still want sex.</p>

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<p>My problem with this story relates to the quality of the reporting and presumed research behind it.</p>

<p>I think this sums it up for me.
[It?s</a> time for an end to ?women?s stories? - Salon.com](<a href=“http://www.salon.com/2013/07/15/its_time_for_an_end_to_womens_stories/?source=newsletter]It?s”>http://www.salon.com/2013/07/15/its_time_for_an_end_to_womens_stories/?source=newsletter)</p>

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<p>Interesting article woody. Thanks for posting it.
…</p>

<p>Just wanted to add this link since the fertility issue came up.</p>

<p>[How</a> Long Can You Wait to Have a Baby? - Jean Twenge - The Atlantic](<a href=“How Long Can You Wait to Have a Baby? - The Atlantic”>How Long Can You Wait to Have a Baby? - The Atlantic)</p>

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<p>Alh, good to read some other info. However, while personal stories are just that, I know many women post 35 who needed fertility drugs to conceive. In fact, many of my friends couldn’t believe that after all those years of regular use of birth control, they now had this problem. Maybe we were the less fertile, who knows. These drugs do not come without risk to health. My own specialist gave me an article after my kid was born, and at that time, it seemed to be the right choice to decline their use for another go around. Not that people didn’t use them more than once without a bad result. It was just that the risk to me, did not outweigh the benefit.</p>

<p>The few post 35 mothers that I know of that had kids without those drugs where those who had other kids previously at a young age. As an over 35 first time mother (but not over 40), I have for the most part been the old(er) mother all through my D’s education. Those few who were my age or older usually had older kids (for my age these could be 30+ year olds now). Once in a blue moon, I met someone who was older than I at the time of first delivery.</p>

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<p>I am curious why nobody says anything about men?
Do women victimize themselves? Or do men take advantage of women?</p>

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<p>anothermom2: It is a complicated issue and I agree with all you are writing. I don’t have as many children as I had planned, and am advising my own children to consider adoption as a sensible and reasonable alternative to biological children as they think about how long to wait to have families. It took me a very long time to consider adoption rationally because most of my adult life was spent in a very deep hormonal soup of baby lust. With menopause the lust finally lessened. I sometimes say it has disappeared but husband and friends disagree.</p>

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<p>I don’t see a problem with mutually consented no-strings sexual acts for those who want that. It’s not in my skill set but carry on.
I don’t think that is the same subject as people feeling coerced into sexual acts. It’s also not the same subject as the death of dating.</p>

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<p>Currently reading this book:</p>

<p>The Defining Decade: Why Your Twenties Matter–And How to Make the Most of Them Now by
Meg Jay</p>

<p>(which was added this year to my local HS’s senior summer reading assignment)</p>

<p>The author contends that we need to make the best use of our twenties to have a productive life. This applies in all areas - work, love, etc. Interesting read and related to this topic in that she discusses the kind of relationships you need to have in your twenties to then have a happy life later on (including if you want them - marriage, children, etc.)</p>

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<p>I recognize that everyone is unique in their sexual needs, but I personally cannot relate to actually enjoying sex to a (ahem) fulfilling conclusion with someone I did not really like. Do these women just close their eyes and think of someone else? Or is it truly just a mechanical thing for them? Or are these encounters mostly one-sided, and if so, I think they are a bad thing for women in general but I’m fine with women doing whatever they want in this regard.</p>

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<p>Take a look at how Judy Blume answers the question “You really tap into the heart of what teenage longing is and how it feels. I know you get a lot of letters from teenagers—what kinds of desires do they express to you?”</p>

<p>[Rookie</a> » So Many Kinds of Longing: An Interview With Judy Blume](<a href=“http://rookiemag.com/2013/07/an-interview-with-judy-blume/2/]Rookie”>Rookie » So Many Kinds of Longing: An Interview With Judy Blume)</p>