<p>Tega: Yes. Very rare, not impossible. As I said, for Obama to be granted tenure might have been successful, but there certainly was no guarantee. The dean did what a lot of deans (or department chairs) do: sound out a prospective candidate before trying to move on. The dean must have thought there was a fair to good chance that he would prevail (otherwise he’d be a bad dean). Suppose Obama had accepted and the faculty had been torn over it?
Interestingly, the year that Obama arrived at HLS was the year that Clare Dalton (aka Mrs. Robert Reich) was denied tenure. This was the heyday of the big battles between the Critical Legal Studies folks (of which she was a leading light) and the more traditionalist law profs. Those battles really tore the school apart. One reason why Obama was voted president of the Harvard Law Review was that he could work with students from both camps.</p>
<p>Regarding siding with the wrong group: Those battles continued long after Obama left. One year, the School decided to make no appointments (it had 4 case come up) because the faculty was too divided. One person, a highly conservative and also highly respected former HLS student who was well liked by all sides did not get an offer because of that decision, which had nothing to do with his own case.</p>
<p>Was that supposed to hurt my feelings? Actually, did go, and did graduate, and have been in the workforce for longer than you’ve been alive sonnyboy.</p>
<p>(BTW, your chances aren’t looking too good at the places you’re considering. I’d work on getting that gpa up a bit. But, best of luck to you!)</p>
<p>Hate to break it to you, but notice what this site is labeled…Parent Cafe</p>
<p>That would infer that anyone posting in this area have children of college age. If you are returning to college in your late 30’s…Great! Otherwise don’t throw stones!</p>
<p>My take would be that a skilled and talented teacher at a school like Chicago <em>might</em> get in the door for a job, but sure as hell would not be fast tracked to tenure. Given the amount of work it would take to achieve tenure normally I really doubt Obama would have been given a pass, regardless of how skilled a teacher he may have been. “Publish or perish” isn’t it? ;)</p>
<p>This is what Obama turned down. Not a tenured professorship, but probably an assistant or associate professorship. There may have been hints that he would be fast-tracked to tenure promotion (before the usual time for promotion review) but it was not a offer of tenure.</p>
<p>That sounds more reasonable. Also, it would have caused some trouble if he didn’t put in the required amount of work for tenure, so I am not sure about a fast-track path.</p>
<p>I don’t know what is meant by “required amount of work” in this case (besides publication). I know of quite a few cases of fast-track when some promising young scholar is considered for tenure ahead of schedule. Usually it is because that scholar is being considered by some other institution. This has actually led to less emphasis on publications at certain schools.</p>
<p>Yes there are some cases where people get tenure early, especially, if the university is afraid of losing them to a peer institution. However, in most of the cases that I am familiar with, their scholarship was better than almost all their peers at that point in their careers or they have shown great promise. I think Obama would be considered as showing great promise category. </p>
<p>I am not saying it doesn’t happen, it does happen, but it is not common. </p>
<p>I am not familiar with the tenure process for law schools, but I think it includes journal and book publications.</p>
<p>There is an old statement in the academia world…Write or die!</p>
<p>I know several professors at reknown universities, all of them are constantly writing on top of their teaching position…check out some of your kids college texts authors…last name is the profs!</p>
<p>In the end though does it really matter if he was going to be or not a law professor? To me it doesn’t, he was much younger and decided he wanted to try something else, for that reason alone I will say he’s human. Not everyone in their 20-30 will remain in the same career or company for the next 30-40 yrs. …except politicians ;)</p>
<p>Tega; Agree. Check my post 661.
b&p: It doesn’t matter except for the hoopla as to whether he was offered an offer of tenure.
Glad that you think he’s human. I’m not voting for an extra-terrestrial!:)</p>
<p>b&p:
True, it’s rather trivial. I was very impressed by the comments on his syllabus. I also heard a segment of a show he did on the Chicago public radio station and again was impressed by his discussion of Dred Scott and Plessy Ferguson. He does have a tendency to halt, stammer a bit, but this was not on display there (he was answering questions from listeners).
Having a sharp intellect of course does not mean that one can be a great president. But it helps, and so does the ability to communicate.</p>
<p>Sometimes it also hurts, because they typically liive in an elitist world, which in Obama’s case is what many people are calling him…PA primary!</p>
<p>Unlike the Clintons or McCains, of course! The person with the most modest background gets called elitist, those with far more advantages throughout life get to be considered “just folks.” Sigh.</p>
<p>Just a thought to interject here - DS’s best friend (female) last year was applying to some very elite schools. While she had the best credentials, many did not offer merit-based aid. Her family made too much money to qualify for FA, but not enough to afford the exhorbitant tuition. This (along w/ school visits) led our families to the realization that many of the top schools basically have a “Two Class System” - the VERY well-to-do who can afford to attend, and the the very poor who qualify for FA.</p>
<p>While I’m sure this isn’t true of all institutions, especially the ones who provide merit-based scholarships as that would introduce a “middle class” into the student body. But is it possible that some of those who attend the elite schools which have the disparity in students who have a more “elitist” view of the world as they might come to see themselves as belonging to only one or the other of those two strata in society?</p>
<p>If this is the case w/ the schools Obama attended, it may account for some of his perceptions & “world view”.</p>
<p>Marite, I’m a staff member in one of those big law firms. Have been in the hiring process on scores. The nicest people ever and I wouldn’t change a thing. However, they are on the whole (almost universally) the most elitist group of people I have ever encountered. They are taught to be that way and I would venture to say that Senator Obama has absorbed at least a bit of that specialness. Not necessarily a bad thing, either, so this isn’t a criticism, but the fact remains that once you’ve graduated from Harvard Law/Yale Law, etc. you are special and you know it. No matter what your background was before.</p>
<p>Indeed. But McCain comes from a long line of admirals and is married to a mega rich wife. Both Hillary and Bill have degrees from Yale Law School, which is as prestigious as HLS. Bill had a modest childhood, but Hillary comes from a solidly middle-class background. Obama’s attendance at his prep school is often used to suggest an elitist upbringing, but he was there on scholarship. His wealth was due almost entirely to his two books. </p>
<p>But, I’ll grant you, he does not try to appear folksy.</p>
<p>It’s not the wealth, it’s the company he has kept. Same with Senator McCain. I think they are both elitists, without question. I just object to the implication (not by you) that Senator Obama is a regular guy. He isn’t. Whatever might have come before, the admission to and graduation from HLS made him special and a member of the American elite. He may be smart, competent, compassionate, all those things. But he’s no longer got the common touch. Graduates of those law schools are amazing people, but they ARE the elite of our society, and they know it. It’s pretty much universal in the hundreds (thousands?) I’ve met that they believe themselves to be smarter, more enlightened than other people. Again, this isn’t a criticism, but it is true.</p>
Actually, did go, and did graduate, and have been in the workforce for longer than you’ve been alive sonnyboy.</p>
I’m not voting for an extra-terrestrial!:)</p>