Obama Opposes Reparations

Parent Cafe
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<p>spidey - I’m not just referring to the AA community in our area, there are plenty of non-AfAm families in our area who don’t value education or support their children’s school endeavors. The challenges faced by teachers whose students’ parents don’t show up for conferences, etc. transcend racial lines.</p>

<p>All sorts of families aren’t giving kids the support & discipline they need to succeed at school. How in the world do we address the situation? It’s a big problem w/ no easy answers & will really involve something like a “cultural revolution” to fix.</p>

<p>And I agree w/ your assertion that AfAms have made incredible strides in the last 50 yrs. It was enlightening when one of our administrators recently made the comment that 40 yrs ago, NO ONE in our area even cared whether an AfAm child even got an education! As a school district, we’ve come long way, but we still have a long way to go - but teachers can’t do it alone.</p>

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<p>Spidygirl:</p>

<p>Not sure I should be lumped together with a great mind like Edvest, but thanks anyway. I see the sum of your argument is we need to educate ourselves more so we can help them. What if they dont need help. They are doing just fine living off society. Secondly you said in post 140: relatively recent that AA’s have been given the benefit of the same laws as everyone else… I thought AA were created to put them above the laws. AA applicants get acceptance with lower scores. How is that the same laws ?</p>

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<p>spidey, your post #140 was most excellent. Well-written and compassionate.</p>

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<p>yourworld

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<p>My point was that a basic understanding of history, sociology, psychology, and the like should assuage your unfair criticism of the AA community.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Are you pulling my leg? OK – I’ll bite.</p>

<p>Let’s put all of the AA’s aside who occupy working class, middle class, and upper class positions in every segment of our economy. Perhaps you are focusing on the portion of the AA population which is suffering from a disproportionate number of societal problems? My point was that this is not a matter of race (which you seem to imply), as any community subjected to extreme external or internal disruption will reflect the same. </p>

<p>Consider that two generations ago the very same things you are saying about the AA community were said about the Irish (I use them as an example because I am Irish). If you consider the brief amount of time that has passed since AA’s have had a seat at the table, and in light of what happened to this group of people, you might agree that this community is quite possibly setting records for turning itself around.</p>

<p>

As far as I can tell, adcoms judge each applicant individually. An A from a competitive private school is different that one from an average public school. An A earned by a first generation applicant who had to contribute to family income is different than one earned by an affluent student whose parents have master’s degrees. The hiring marketplace will demand what is in short supply, just like any other market, and colleges need to create and prepare a pipeline of applicants to meet that need. Not sure what you are talking about beyond that. </p>

<p>The only thing I can think of offhand about how AA’s are treated differently under the law is that when they commit a crime they are way, way, way more likely to end up in jail for it compared to a Caucasian person doing the very same thing wrong.</p>

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<p>^Judge? Huh??? I have no idea what you are talking about. Please elaborate.</p>

<p><----------Besides, don’t you realize that I am in a unique position to know what is going on, Mallon? I fly between buildings, defy gravity, and walk up vertical surfaces with ease. I look in windows which are many stories above the ground. I see things others do not see.</p>

<p>Does that help?</p>

<p>BTW, how are you “Mallon”?</p>

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<p>I really do think spidey is turning into a liberal. Nice job Hindoo. I blame you for being too reasonable sometimes!</p>

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<p>Ahem. … You’re heading that way too, my friend. :)</p>

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<p>^Totally not true, pmrlcomm! I am the same as I’ve always been - very liberal socially, very conservative on the economy and defense.</p>

<p>The only effect Hindoo has on me is sort of like in the Bugs Bunny cartoons when “music calms the savage beast”. When Hindoo enters the room, I become a little nicer in my approach. In that way, he or she has had a benevolent effect. I think Hindoo has that effect on everyone, though.</p>

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<p>So spidey, I just want to get this straight. </p>

<p>You’re saying that AAs have suffered more than any race and haven’t really had a fair opportunity until the 1970s. Thus, they should be given chances and help in order to get them on their feet? Also, all of us can’t understand what it’s like to be black because we don’t understand their culture, history, psychology etc? </p>

<p>So if this is the case, what do you think we should do to give AAs a chance in the community? What do you think is fair? And how long should we give it to them? And just out of curiosity, why are you so passionate about helping AAs out?</p>

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<p>^I think you should go back and reread my last few posts and come back again.</p>

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<p>Wow… as D said, I started a flame war! (With post #72). Spideygirl, I pay plenty in taxes. EFC = over 50K, everyone on this board knows that that means :slight_smile: (and one thing it means is that I am funding college for many other kids at my D’s school - - and I am not griping). Regarding taxes, I am not a “nominal” payer or “non-payer”. </p>

<p>I certainly get that “government” means “individual people”. That does not absolve us from responsibility to our society just because government is a pooled resource instead of an individual one – in fact, in the end that is really all our government is, a pooling of our ideas, ideals, and (yes) funds for the good of our society. We might disagree on what amount and form that pooling takes. But we are lucky that we live in a time and place where we can freely debate it, and where “we the people” are the final arbitrators through our votes. And I think everyone has the same basic goals – a society where more (we may never get to all) people are productive, law abiding citizens. I don’t think anyone wants our society or our kids’ society to be less productive and less law abiding.</p>

<p>Where I think we disagree is that I think that some systemic approach to this needs to be taken - - some of it improvement on what we already do, and potentially some new ideas. I am not ready to throw up my hands, call everyone who is lower class in society “them”, and assume that someone else will take care of the issue. I do get that every good idea can’t be funded, or we would have nothing left in our pockets. Not to get too far off topic, but the current administration has blown 800 billion (yup, that is a “b”) on a wasteful war and rebuilding process when we have some really huge needs (think Katrina, FEMA payments for those affected by the Mississippi floods of 2008, bridge infrastructure, let alone crumbling inner cities like Detroit). We as citizens have some real choices in what kind of leaders we choose, and through that how our tax dollars are spent. I am all for national security spending (start with better port security), but what I really want to see is smarter spending.</p>

<p>Also, I don’t think the rich are inherently evil - - in fact, I think Bill Gates may go down as the most generous philanthropist in history, and darned smart about making sure the $ are spent wisely - - and that sure isn’t evil. </p>

<p>I also saw some criticism about leading by example. Note that this program took place at my kid’s private school over the summer - - as a parent, I know who is footing the bill for the air conditioning, janitorial staff, some of the program materials, etc. And my D gave a ton of time (she got paid, but as an hourly wage it was not any great shakes because she worked so many hours). I make many charitable contributions on top of my taxes, too.</p>

<p>To YourWorld, some of the kids in this program were Vietnamese or Hmong. From D’s stories, I don’t think there was really a difference in motivation or parental support from the AA kids. Low income is low income… And how do we keep the next generation from walking out on their kids? How do we break that cycle of “environment and expectations” that pmrlcomm talks about? There is no silver bullet, but I’m not willing to just call it someone else’s problem; we all pay the consequences.</p>

<p>Edvest1, I think your post about ethnic groups who “prefer to make their living by robbing and stealing” is demeaning. These parents signed their kids up for this program and made sure they got up and got to their busses every day all summer. They came to parent conferences (even the parents that didn’t speak much English) and to the closing ceremony. I don’t think those parents want their kids to grow up to rob and steal. That kind of generalization is pretty unhelpful to individuals who are trying to improve their lives and their kids lives (in fact, I think that kind of generalization about a whole ethnic group is the very definition of racist). Maybe it is easy to be that way when you don’t have specific kids in front of you that really might be able to make something of their lives.</p>

<p>SpideyGirl, at one point in the past I would have said what you did, about being socially liberal and fiscally conservative. My perspective has changed over the years to realize that (1) both parties spend a ton - - our deficits have grown more under Republican administrations than Democratic ones for the last 30 years; (2) The big difference is what they spend on, and I prefer butter to guns most of the time (not exclusively, but we can spend a lot fighting wars far from home and rot from within - - I live in the city where the highway bridge fell in the river last year…).</p>

<p>I will stand by my original post because I genuinely think that at least this particular program will reduce our overall tax burden in the long run (so it has the bonus of helping them AND helping us). An educated citizenry that pays taxes and does not enter the criminal justice system is worth some investment. And I think this type of program is potentially repeatable and expandable.</p>

<p>Okay, flame away again. I can’t post from work tomorrow, but will watch with interest :-)</p>

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<p>^I didn’t mean anything as a flame towards your post personally or the specific program - I was speaking to the ideas and the issue of solving problems through government programs and wealth redistribution. Your post just got me started on that path. Clearly, I feel strongly about it. </p>

<p>This thread had taken many twists and turns since then.</p>

<p>I think it’s true that both parties spend a ton. That’s why I believe that conservatives don’t really have a candidate this election. I am completely disillusioned with the Republican party.</p>

<p>I have not focused on the specific program you mentioned, but in general I find that most people agree on the problems that need attending. We just disagree on the way to fix them. It isn’t a matter of throw up our hands and give up, or fix the problems. Under the heading of “fix the problems”, there are almost an infinite number of choices.</p>

<p>I distrust government run programs. I trust people more than government, and believe that the more locally run something is, the better. I also believe there is too little money chasing too many problems, and that in general people should have a right to spend their money on the causes they would like to support. </p>

<p>I find it very disturbing (as you can probably tell) that so few are paying most of the taxes, and that through voting a very high percentage of the population can now vote to redistribue wealth in their own direction. This looks like Socialism to me, and from what I’ve seen, that experiment already failed.</p>

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<p>Spideygirl, you wrote:

In [another</a> post](<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/540873-obama-audacity-vanity-who-guy-53.html#post1060803642]another”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/540873-obama-audacity-vanity-who-guy-53.html#post1060803642), on a different thread, you wrote:

I am not asking or suggesting that you should change your mind or your political views. But I would encourage you to keep an open mind as you follow this election… and ask yourself where you want this country to be in 2012 when the next election comes around.</p>

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<p>SpideyGirl, I generally agree that I “trust people more than government”. It is amazing what individuals can do. Government programs are not always efficient. I am pretty pragmatic, though. Big government is a fact of life. I want the smartest, most practical person possible in the Presidency; I believe we have recently seen the serious damage that a not-so-bright bulb who is easily manipulated by others can do to our country in that position. Obama has the brains, the education, the multicultural background, the oratory skills, and the flexibility to sharpen the focus of our government services and get more bang for our buck. Oh, and he is not beholden to big corporations and PACS, and has stood his ground to refuse to allow anyone associated with political 527 organizations to have any access to him before or after the election. I’m getting pretty tired of politicians who think more of corporate interests and corporate donors than citizen interests. Don’t get me wrong, I understand the value of corporations in our society and that capitalism is the underpinning of much that is good in the US. I just don’t think that lobbyists and corporate interests should be able to “buy” government policy the way they have in recent years.</p>

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<p>Interesting article with an account of [why</a> Susan Eisenhower, a lifelong Republican, decided to back Obama](<a href=“HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News | HuffPost”>Republicans Gather to Support Obama at Platform Meeting in Westfield, Indiana | HuffPost Latest News):

</p>

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<p>Calmom:

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<p>I have no difficulty finding things that I like about Barack Obama, but I am voting based on two issues, the economy and defense. I am way more comfortable with McCain on defense – hands down. There really is evil in the world – there are some elements on this planet that cannot and should not be negotiated with. I do think that Obama would be way better at garnering world support, yet one of the reasons for that is he is softer on fighting the bad guys. That is a dangerous thing. He is also very inexperienced in general and on the world scene specifically. Right now I have very experienced people working for me and a few who are learning on the job. Oh my – the messes the latter create. We can’t take the same chance with the POTUS position.</p>

<p>Intparent:

This is where we disagree – it doesn’t have to be. I mean to some extent you’re right, but it’s like kudzu – we need to keep cutting it back.</p>

<p>Intparent:

</p>

<p>Anyone would have to agree that Obama is a brilliant man, but John McCain is as well. He is well educated, and has had decades of experience honing every skill imaginable. His wife runs a big business, and while I wish he had direct experience doing that himself, he did I believe work in it for a while at least. His oratory skills are not even close to Obama’s, but really, that is not a measure of intelligence. McCain is overflowing with experience, and when it comes to management, I’ll take someone who is experienced over someone who is just bright without that experience any day. </p>

<p>My prediction is that when it comes to managing the “bigness” of our government, we all should trust the guy with more experience over the one with more charm and a Harvard degree.</p>

<p>

Well, this is a thread in and of itself. I am not sure that most people have any legitimate perspective on the real successes and failures of the Bush administration, as few of us can get past the din of liberal onslaught which has gone on unabated for eight years.</p>

<p>Intparent

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<p>I agree with most of this. But the damage that an Obama administration, with its Socialist leanings, will do to our economy will more than offset any good. And as you say, corporations and business are good things. Jobs, income, food on our table, and a roof over our heads. Investments that hold their value so we can fund our retirement. If those basic needs are not taken care of, the rest pretty much goes out the window. </p>

<p>A free market, and a government with low taxes and few regulations, is the way to go to protect the most important things that our economy has to offer us. Obama will be very bad for those things.</p>

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<p>SpideyGirl, bold is a lot like caps… for someone who claims they don’t flame, you seem to have a hard time posting without caps, bold, and name calling (Democrat does not equal socialist).</p>

<p>A few comments on your post above:</p>

<p>Obama is not a 25 year old. I, too, work in the corporate world, and have seen that younger colleagues can make errors that older colleagues do not. But age 47 isn’t a pup. And I have worked with many older workers (esp. once they get over 60) who are inflexible and can’t cope with changing how things are done (the “that’ll never work, we tried that in ‘79” crowd). I’d rather have a super bright 47 year old with a lot of new ideas than a 72 year old that his own party never really saw as fit for the presidential nomination before this year.</p>

<p>Regarding defense, I have no reason to believe that Obama would not strike hard and fast (and accurately - - what a concept!) in a situation like 9/11. It is not too much to ask that our leaders not make up data for the march to war. I note that the Bush administration has been following Obama’s lead lately and is talking about time horizons and negotiating with Iran. Even in the deepest part of the Cold War, we never stopped talking with the Russians. It is arrogant to think that a gun can solve every problem. I’m certainly in the “trust but verify” camp. I, by the way, am a gun owner. I have no aversion to guns per se or the military. A candidate can still be strong on defense without moving down the path of unilateral, preemptive strikes against other sovereign nations.</p>

<p>Regarding smarts, John McCain finished 894th out of 899 graduates in his Naval Academy class. That is the 1 percentile (in fact, it is the .005%), ought to be ‘nuff said on a CC post. I don’t call that well educated; you can get a great education at the Naval Academy, but John McCain didn’t. If you don’t want to take a chance on the POTUS position, isn’t that taking a huge chance to put someone who was at the bottom of the barrel academically in the position? And regarding work experience, he worked for his father-in-law’s beer distributorship for one year before running for the Senate using his wife’s money. I really don’t think you can count that as a learning experience for being POTUS, either… I just don’t see any signs of brilliant in the man at all. By the way, McCain’s character is certainly in question, too - - leaving his first wife and three children for Cindy the beer heiress after the first wife’s auto accident injuries certainly doesn’t give me reason to think that he would behave honorably in the office of President.</p>

<p>I actually don’t disagree with the kudzu analogy; some pruning is a good idea. But I think we are more practical to think that we can shape (think topiary!) our government. I for one do not want to raze it to the ground; I want good roads & bridges, an army & national guard to defend our borders and our allies, safe food, safe consumer products, safe drugs, a low crime rate, an educated citizenry, and a judicial system and police forces with sufficient resources. That said, I agree that outdated or inefficient programs should be pruned (can anyone say “agriculture subsidy”?), but neither party seems to be moving in that direction. We’d have to vote Libertarian to get that result, I expect.</p>

<p>Why is the average citizen’s perspective not legitimate on the Bush administration’s performance? I read a lot of news sources – WSJ, Atlantic, 2 daily local newspapers, Google News, Newsweek, Time, CNN, Politico, and also listen to several news podcasts. We have a free press, and the sources I read/listen to cover the gamut. It isn’t too hard to triangulate in on the failures of this administration. Torture, wiretapping, monitoring library usage (don’t try to make the argument that the Dems are the ones intruding with too much regulation after the “Patriot Act” created that rule!). And that pesky $800 billion expenditure with nothing to show for it but thousands of military and civilian deaths, along with the enmity of the world. Oh, and George Bush punching the air at this year’s G8 summit and laughing about being the biggest polluter in the world. You must be proud…</p>

<p>I am pretty fascinated by the list of what you think is important, and why you think less government will help with those things. I am particularly laughing at the investments that hold value - - more regulation in the lending market would have saved many of us a lot of real estate headaches - - lending with no money down is just a bad idea all the way around. Food on your table – do you want it to be safe (free from salmonella)? The FDA is a government program - - not a perfect one, but I’d sure rather we have it than not. Income – yup, provided by private corporations – but you can’t count them to watch out for your interests, do you know anyone who has been switched from a traditional pension to a defined pension plan lately? And does Enron ring a bell? I have an MBA, and I still think that corporations unchecked by regulation are a recipe for disaster (environmental, safety for workers, exorbitant CEO pay, and mergers that benefit the executives far more than the customers or employees).</p>

<p>Okay, that is the end of my posting on this topic. We are far from the topic of reparations…</p>

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<p>intparent:

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<p>Not really a great start for an attempt at a persuasive response. The bold versus caps discussion was already covered (beaten like a dead horse), and I moved onto bold type at the request of some who feel more sensitive about such things. This despite the fact that I have noticed that the sensitivity arises only when there are points made which obviously hit home.</p>

<p>Equating a reference to Barack Obama as a Socialist instead of a Democrat to “name-calling”…that’s really beyond silly.</p>

<p>Regarding your age discussion, I feel it is inappropriate to discuss age as it relates to performance or suitability for a job. I’m not sure if it is even legal “in the corporate world”. It certainly could lead to a litigious situation. Since you were responding to my post, let me remind you that the point I made had to do with experience, not age.</p>

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<p>To me: All caps is “yelling.” Bold face is “stressing a point.” Like when interesteddad says The One, he’s emphasizing how much he admires Barak Obama. :)</p>

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<p>intparent

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<p>Wow - just got to this part.</p>

<p>Maybe I will stop using caps and bold when I post in response to you. ;)</p>