Oberlin College v. Clark University (or Edinburgh or Avignon or Montpellier)

College Search & Lists
1

Oberlin College v. Clark University (or University of Edinburgh or University of Avignon or Paul Valéry University, Montpellier III)
He likes both schools, they are his top US options at present I believe.
Here are the considerations for us (next week were scheduled for a family discussion):
• He is very interested in GIS (Geographic Information Systems) and geography as a potential major
• Environmental science, biology, and maybe premed are also considerations
• He has strong preference for a liberal arts institution, still discovering life goals
• The financial aid packages from both make the costs virtually the same (Oberlin has a larger cost, but its package was more generous, so it is marginally less expensive)
• Oberlin does not seem to have much of a GIS program and no geography major
• Clark seems to be on the cutting-edge GIS research and a renowned geography department
• He is planning on continuing his education to earn a Masters or PhD
• Clark has an accelerated Masters program, this would give him the opportunity to get the degree for an additional fifth year without tuition. (This is a program is very interested in)
• Oberlin seems to have a better statistic for graduates continuing to PhD programs, a plus for him.
• Oberlin’s reputation a is a plus

• Both campuses have been visited and enjoyed
o He likes urban areas and proximity to New York City (Clark)
o Oberlin’s small town enjoyed and this a plus
o He made connections with Oberlin students on his visit
o He likes the quirkiness of Clark students
o He finds Oberlin campus beautiful
o He likes Oberlin’s co-ops
o He slightly preferred Clark facilities

The choice between US and European will happen later, all the European options have much lower costs, practically zero for the French institutions. The exact options will depend on the results of the French baccalaureate exam which does not happen until mid-June so we have to select our US options before knowing fully the other possibility’s. The ones listed are the probable European choices (Oxford Brooks for geography is also a consideration).
Your thoughts on US V Europe college choices are most welcome!

• He is completely bilingual (French – English) but English is still easier for him, and it is his studying language preference.
• He hates cold winters and cold days (this gives an advantage to Avignon or Montpellier)

[He is waitlisted and waiting responses on some other US schools that might change this matchup]

2

If premed is a possibility he really needs to stick with the US options because he won’t be able to get the prerequisites done at a non-US institution.

3

Congratulations on his admission to excellent universities!!!

Both Clark and Oberlin will be greatly better than UPV or Avignon; The real choice is between Edinburgh (what “course” was he admitted for?) and the US colleges. Edinburgh is magnitudes better than a regular French university - it’s like a Grande Ecole, it’s free, it’s well-funded, and most fields have excellent professional outcomes post-bachelors. There should not be much debate between free&underfunded and free&prestigious/well-funded. Edinburgh however is large and not that flexible academically if he’s unsure of his academic interests. Mostly lectures, few tutorials/practicals.
Clark and Oberlin will have the best quality of instruction, with small interactive classes, hands-on learning, a relationship with professors, a tight-knit community with a network of classmates, etc. Both would let him explore his academic interests.

I assume he has read the Fiske guide for both colleges?
What appeals to him in particular?

Oberlin is very liberal and politically active (Bernie Sanders and AOC would seem pretty mainstream, for instance, which would likely not phase a teen who’s lived in France where there’s a huge spectrum to their left). It may be a cultural shock nevertheless, not in terms of political ideology but in terms of cultural assumptions, compared to Southern France (depending on how long you’ve lived there) where the concept of “respecting pronouns” is unheard of as is intersectionality. He may be the only student there whose school curriculum may not have included a single female author or minority writer (it’d probably be strange even at conservative schools too but it wouldn’t be judged in the same way). Oberlin is very dynamic, active, intellectual. Excellent conservatory = excellent concerts. Lots of resources. A good example of an elite LAC.
However they don’t have geography nor GIS, and their environmental program is “studies” not “science”. Would he find a major of interest at Oberlin?
Clark is superb for his chosen fields, so academically Clark would be a better fit. It’s liberal, but not as nationally-famous-for-being-liberal as Oberlin. Students are quirky, nerdy, and politically committed, more socio-economically diverse. So it’d really depend on his personality, his non academic interests, etc.

4

Thank you all for your thoughtful and helpful posts. The posts are helping me focus my thoughts for our weekend discussion.

He has been admitted to the course “BSc, Ecological and Environmental Sciences”, School: GeoSciences, College: Science and Engineering. This is the same college that houses the geography courses, reviewing their course lists there is a lot of class crossover.

I agree with MYOS1634’s comparison of the European options. His selected course also seems to fit nicely into academic interests, as far as I can tell. I am hoping to find more points for this analysis for our family discussion.

I think the appeal of the French institutions for him has three parts:

  1. Practically zero costs, [he should be eligible for partial housing board grant]
  2. Quality of life, there very pleasant places to live
  3. He considering staying in France after graduating, if may be easier to develop France connections if he studies in France

In terms of applying to graduate school in US. I am wondering how much effect having a European degree would have compared to one of his US options?

I think he would be comfortable in any of the schools. He has friends on all sides of the political spectrum, but I believe he is center left. He comes off as shy until you know he, he is very serious student. He keeps surprising me by how kind he is to other people. He has no interest in partying. He is always drawing and making diagrams to think out his ideas. Since he periodically goes through book reading binges I believe he will be okay regarding the authors he has read. [Of course, my judgments are very bias, and I could not be prouder of him]

His other options:
SUNY ESF (College of Environmental Science and Forestry)
[he really liked the school during the visit especially the students who he met, there is no geography/GIS program, but he could take classes at Syracuse which has a very good geography/GIS program]

SUNY Binghamton University
He really did not like the school during his visit even though this has a good geography/GIS program

SUNY New Paltz
He really enjoyed the college during his visit, I do not think he will as be stretched academically here? This geography/GIS program may be comparable to the ones in Avignon? (UPV better reputation but larger classes)?

CUNY Hunter College
This would mean living at home, maybe not the best for his personal growth?

(CUNY, and SUNY are cost-effective as were New York State residents)

Macalester College
This option may combine some of the advantages of both Clark and Oberlin?

Oxford Brookes:
Business Management and Geography
BA (Hons) / BSc (Hons) – combined
or
MBiol (Biological Sciences)
Department of Biological and Medical Sciences
MBiol

Any thoughts on how Oxford Brookes compares to Avignon and UPV?

5

Honestly, if he wants nice places to live, he can move there after college, or go during the summer for an internship. One summer in Avignon, one summer in Montpellier, no big deal.

The quality of life and teaching at SUNY New Paltz would be better than at Oxford Brookes, Avignon, or UPV. At both Avignon and UPV, first year lectures will be hit/miss, labs will be overcrowded, I’m sure you’ve seen the pictures of students standing on stairs or sitting in corridors taking notes… And they’re purely commuter. It’d be like going to a huge high school, except underfunded and with faculty! student ratio between 1:30 and 1:40. (You can look up what they are in the US. But let’s say that even at SUNYs he won’t be fighting 40 students for lab space).

Scotland will be free tuition. Sure, no housing grant, but the educational benefits are more important. Tell him not to be penny wide, pound foolish.

OXford Brookes will charge tuition though. Not sure it’s a good choice considering everything else.

There’ll be no alumni network, career services, or support services in France (they exist nominally, but not in reality).

Macalester is as prestigious as Oberlin (or nearly) and while politically active a bit less radical. It’s also located in one of the best urban neighborhoods in the US. While MN is very cold, it’s also quite sunny most of the winter. Educationally it may be your best choice and certainly as good as Oberlin and Clark in terms of learning experience. Did he visit?

I too worried about weather when I chose my college, and found sunny days mattered more to me than temperatures (you can wear a good parka, you can’t do anything about gloomy skies and rain).

To apply to grad school from France, he’d have to be in M1 and one of the tippy top students at UPV or Avignon (Mention TB AND manages to make himself known to his professors, which will be a huge challenge since most won’t know he even exists.) The set up is a problem for letters of recommendation, and most French professors don’t know how to write those and dislike the “positive” tone US letters try to strike or go overboard with flowery compliments with no examples. Another issue is that anything beside classes will have to be organized by you, his family. I don’t think undergraduates can participate in any sort of research and any means of proving leadership will have to be done in town, through clubs, groups, teams, associations… There’ll be a few groups on-campus but sparsely attended. When making his choice he’ll have to choose brand-names, groups that “make sense” in the US.

Did he get into the Honors College at SUNY New Paltz?
https://www.newpaltz.edu/honors/apply.html
(Note that he would have to submit a Philosophy paper as well as another paper).

If he’s not into partying, he should request a “healthy living” or “sub free” (subtance free) dorm. It means students pledge not to drink, get drunk or high, or organize parties in their dorm. The RA typically organizes activities that do not require alcohol - movie, games, outings/trips, etc.