my son’s roommates are both professors at Oberlin, so i’ve heard lovely things about the school. Also, i love the history of the school.
That said, i cannot imagine anyone good enough to learn both Japanese and a Chinese dialect. I could see learning 2 Chinese dialects. I will let Cobrat weigh in with his opinion.
It’s possible for folks to learn Chinese and Japanese, but very difficult. It’s something which needs to be learned* however if one hopes to pursue graduate study in East Asian Studies as there’s much primary and secondary sources and scholarship in those languages.
Speakingwise, Japanese is arguably easier for Americans/Westerners to pickup as verbal communication isn’t dependent on differentiating between verbal tones as much as Mandarin(4 tones) or Cantonese(~9 tones).
I’ve heard from Chinese and Japanese language instructors that it’s better to master one language rather than attempting to learn them both at the same time as the shared Traditional Chinese Characters or “Kanji” as it’s known in Japanese could be very confusing to students uninitiated in both.
In fact, this is an issue which even affects Chinese and Japanese students as I’ve heard endlessly from relatives and classmates from Japan and various Chinese speaking regions of the world. Some relatives knew grad school classmates who flunked out of PhD programs because they couldn’t pass Chinese or Japanese language exams due to this very issue.
Also, foreign language courses involve a lot of class meetings(5 one hour class/drill sessions each week for first 2 years) and have so much work that it was considered a 5 credit course when most regular college courses are 3 credits.
Hi all. Just checking in. The only news I have to report is that it’s now between Oberlin and Dickinson. Both are a better fit for D. I continue to appreciate all of the input from everyone. Thanks!
Yes, I agree that an East Asian Studies major with concentration in both languages will be tough, though not impossible. Two professors of Japanese, one at Bucknell and another at UMD-College Park, said they have a few students currently tackling both simultaneously. How well they’re doing at that, I didn’t ask. Every student is different with their own strengths/weaknesses. I was just surprised that it’s attempted and not that rare after all. Clearly during freshman year D will get a better sense of what she might be in for and mabe re-evaluate her plans…or not…
It’s going to be a very long week in this household. Decisions, decisions. I’ll keep checking back for more comments until I can deliver the good news. Have a great weekend everyone!
I can say that, as of the period 7-10 years ago, the report I got was the Chinese language instructors at Oberlin were outstanding.
That said, the difficulty of learning Chinese for someone with no material prior exposure should not be underestimated. Based on the time and effort I’ve seen a very gifted person with great facility for other languages apply to the task I can’t imagine somebody tackling two at the same time.
Regarding Oberlin vs. Dickinson, this was what CC poster Plainsman posted in 2011, FWIW:
“…my D applied to both Oberlin and Dickinson (and some other LACs) two years ago and was accepted at both. She also had repeat visits to both. While she could see herself at Dickinson, she liked Oberlin more. No Greek life, almost no Republicans, and a world-class music conservatory right on campus. Oberlin also came across with more of an intellectual vibe than Dickinson. Finally, the dining facilities at Oberlin were vastly superior (we ate at both schools during our visits). I’m not saying Oberlin food tastes better or is healthier than Dickinson. I’m talking about the number and variety of on-campus eateries and eating options. It’s no contest. My D felt the dining hall at Dickinson would get old real fast. The one thing she (and we) liked more about Dickinson two years ago were the dorms. But in the last two years, Oberlin has caught up in that department with last year’s opening of a brand new “green” freshman dorm, the third all-frosh dorm on campus.”
You should think hard before going to Oberlin, where apparently things like this happen: http://reason.com/blog/2015/04/23/oberlin-activists-posted-creepy-messages
Were the students heritage speakers or did they otherwise have a head start (e.g. immersion program in elementary school with continued study in middle and high school) in one of the languages?
The students who tackle two typically are heritage speakers in one, and have reached a decent level (intermediate at the very least) in one AND have natural ability for learning languages. Either of these two languages is among the most difficult ones to learn. From a concrete standpoint, if your daughter were really to pursue this, she’d have to proceed along those lines:
Freshman year, level1&2 in one language -Chinese recommended (expect to dedicate about 20hours per week to it between class, drill/lab, homework). Take one genor two eds in relation to East Asia (history would be the most obvious one, art possibly- check frequency of offerings) Spring:apply for spring sophomore study abroad.
Summer after freshman year: Middlebury summer immersion/intensive language programs to cover one level of intermediate Chinese thoroughly.
Fall sophomore year: verify that an appropriate language course is offered as those are often in sequence. One language course, one civilization course.
Spring sophomore year: study in China.
Summer after sophomore year: Middlebury intensive program in Japanese.
Fall junior year: start Japanese at intermediate level; continue with Chinese at advanced level. Apply for study abroad in Japan.
Spring junior year: same as Fall
Summer: internship
Fall senior year: study in Japan.
As you can see the prescribed path is very strict and requires a lot of dedication. Two summers have to be used for language acceleration-at a proven but pricey program- and there’s no room for deviation if both languages are to be learned at a “usable” level. The internship would be necessary for your daughter to show she can use/apply her skills, but if she were aiming at a PhD that could be a summer research program.
MYOS1634: Wow! Thanks for your thoughtful input regarding my D’s dream path. And since she’s not yet enrolled, , she may very well find that it remains a dream. She is not a heritage speaker, though she does have a natural ability to take to languages easily. Of course this is high school world languages we’re talking about and naturally the intensity ramps up right from the start in college.
You have mapped out an amazing plan, and with such careful detail to the time line for its accomplishment. Not only am I stunned and grateful for your effort, but I wonder if you might be a professor, or academic advisor, for language studies. Or mainly a thoughtful, concerned citizen that can lay out one possible reality for her to seriously ponder. Many thanks and greatly appreciated!
Yes, you’re correct, the intensity ramps up - college languages at the beginning and intermediate levels progress at a brutal pace: your daughter will cover the equivalent of 2 years of HS Foreign language in 4 months. That’s roughly : 1 month of HS content = 1 week of college content; another way to put this is that what content she’d have 15 to 20 hours of classtime to master in high school (+ probably at least 12 hours of hw spread over a month) she’ll only have 5 hours to master in college classes, and everything else will have to be autonomous work (drill, lab, work with assistant, homework). Hence the 20 hour per week time commitment for a language as difficult as Chinese (or Japanese).
It’s really a difficult project and there’s very little margin for error. If the student is dedicated and gifted, the “map” presented above can work. By the time she’s a junior, she’d have a better idea whether she wants to tackle Japanese too, or dedicate her time to other interests.
I’m an academic adviser and I used to work in languages indeed. 
Aren’t there some studies indicating that “natural ability for learning languages” is influenced by growing up in a multilingual environment from the earliest ages? I.e. the multilingual environment in early childhood not only results in the learning of more languages at that time, but also influences brain development so that future language learning becomes easier for that person.
In terms of language difficulty for English speakers, Chinese (Mandarin) and Japanese are in the category where Foreign Service Institute and Defense Language Institute courses are the longest duration, indicating more difficulty reaching the desired level of proficiency.
http://aboutworldlanguages.com/language-difficulty
The above linked web site has a note about “Food for thought: Duration of language instruction in U.S. colleges and universities”, comparing classroom time in foreign language course work in colleges to that of the FSI and DLI foreign language courses.
And the winner is…Oberlin!!
She’s finally relieved (I think) to have decided and is starting to get a little excited now.
Thanks to all of you for your insights and for caring enough to share them! You’ve been tremendously helpful!
All our best!
-happy parents of an Obie!
Thanks for letting us know, I really hate it when people give all this input and then we never find out.
And good luck to your daughter.
I know how stressful these decisions can be, it’s great to put them behind and get ready to move forward.
Oberlin is a great choice. Congratulations!
MYOS nicely laid out the level of effort (and expense) it would require to learn both Chinese and Japanese as an undergraduate. Having studied both languages, I’d recommend your D focus on one or another (not both). Otherwise you’ll be crowding out opportunities to take other interesting courses. The college classroom ultimately is rather limited as an environment in which to develop true fluency. For that, you really need an immersion experience (or several).
Your daughter might want to talk to professors about whether becoming a professional Chinese or Japanese translator/interpreter is a realistic goal for someone who hasn’t grown up in a bilingual environment. She may decide it makes more sense to develop a good command of one language as a tool to complement expertise in some other field (such as history & area studies, economics, political science, international relations, or information technology).
The Chinese spoken language, if you have good teachers, can be fairly easy and fun to learn (after a few intense weeks learning the tonal sound system). The writing system is a different beast altogether.
I have never heard that Chinese was simple to learn. I also don’t know what dialect is better to learn. I’ve also never known anyone to study both languages.
It seems very different than learning a few Romance languages.
While one does need to put in a large amount of effort and have some facility with languages, one doesn’t necessarily need to grow up in a bilingual environment or be a heritage speaker to have a realistic chance of becoming a translator in a foreign language…including an East Asian one.
I personally know some non-heritage friends who grew up in a mono-lingual American household who are full-time translators of Chinese and Japanese. At least one of them freelances as a Japanese translator full-time and a few others use Chinese/Japanese/Korean language skills daily in complex tasks including translation of complex corporate business and legal documents.
Also, anyone who is a scholar in East Asian related fields must have proficiency in at least 2 East Asian languages along with one or more European languages to translate source material and keep up with scholarship in journals written in those languages.
Strongly agree here unless your D finds she’s one of the few academic superwomen who can overload beyond 16 credit hours each semester* and balance out the ginormous workload of 2 foreign languages along with fulfilling major/minor requirements, writing/quant proficiency requirements, and the 9-9-9** distribution requirement.
** 9 credits(3 regular sized classes) each in arts/humanities, social sciences, and natural/technical sciences.
This is YMMV depending on the individual college and/or high school concerned.
Oberlin’s foreign languages…including East Asian languages does have a high workload and require much time and prep. Incidentally, when I took Chinese there, we used the same Chinese textbooks Princeton uses.
However, not all colleges pace their foreign languages at that pace as illustrated by a friend who was dissuaded from taking a summer Chinese language course at his local state university as 1 summer session equivalent to their 1 year’s worth of second-year Chinese would only cover about a semester’s worth at Oberlin’s pace. A situation which would defeat the purpose of his taking that course: to gain enough preparation to pass the Chinese language department’s 2 year proficiency exam so he can skip straight into third-year Chinese after taking the first-year course.
By the same token, not all high schools pace their foreign languages at the same pace. For instance, the rule of thumb I heard used for NYC area private and better public high schools is 1 year’s worth of HS foreign language == ~1 semester at the college level. And from what I’ve observed, that rule largely held from my public magnet to Oberlin.
Among the world’s ~1B Mandarin speakers, it’s a closely kept secret 
http://www.hutong-school.com/chinese-is-easy-why-learning-chinese-is-not-as-hard-as-you-may-think
I’m referring to spoken Modern Standard Chinese (“Mandarin”), not to other dialects (some of which have more complex tone systems than Mandarin), not to the writing system, and not to Chinese history & culture.
YMMV (even w.r.t. speaking alone … since many Westerners do struggle with the tones).
No, there don’t seem to be too many Americans who develop proficiency in both (aside perhaps from people who already are heritage speakers of one.) They are two completely different languages, historically unrelated except for the fact that Japanese borrowed the Chinese writing system. Furthermore, learning either one well involves much more than just the mechanics of language, per se.
“The writing system is a different beast altogether”
That’s certainly the report I get.