Off-Topic Discussion from "Colleges Crossed Off List or Moved Up After Visiting"

As an example, 3 of the 4 South Africans who broke the then men’s record in relay (swimming) at the 2004 Olympics were at the university of Arizona…and the 4th was at U Florida. It’s great for under-resourced countries who don’t have the money to compete with countries like the US, Australia and those in Europe to develop sports… but you have to wonder about the benefit to the local colleges.

Not sure if I missed it being mentioned, but the surge in applications to CU Boulder this year is being attributed at least in part to Coach Prime. Still…his paycheck is eye watering.

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I’ll trust the, you know, actual psychologists and neuroscientists out there on that question more than I’ll trust college admissions officers.

And really, read what you just wrote. You’re committing a pretty blatant post hoc ergo propter hoc error here, combined for a good measure with a begging the question—claiming that because admissions to high-prestigiosity institutions are conducted in a particular way, and because so many people (including you, apparently) assume that high-prestigiosity institutions admit based on intelligence, then the way those institutions conduct admissions must be a reliable proxy for the measurement of intelligence.

That is not just fallacious, it is fallacious in some pretty bizarre ways.

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That is a very complicated story with a lot of what I would call path dependence.

At a very high level, one of the distinguishing characteristics of the US higher education system is that we operate a very robust private college and university system in parallel to our public college and university system. In fact the oldest privates had quite the head start, and then the publics really took off after the 1860s with the land grant movement, to the point some privates got absorbed eventually into public systems. But many privates were able to stay independent, and in fact the wealthy class kept creating more privates.

OK, and then in a critical period when college athletics was first taking off in the late 1800s, it was actually the privates that led the way. This all dated back to certain classical ideals of education in which physical education was considered integral, which filtered through aristocratic notions of not just mental but physical superiority, which were reflected at one time in war and then eventually in sport. But anyway, the gentleman scholar was often some sort of athlete as well.

OK, so then the “upstart” public colleges and universities took this up as well as part of their effort to compete with the private colleges and universities for social status and “top” students. And eventually, they grew large enough to actually dominate college athletics. It is hard to imagine today, but at one point Harvard football was 4-0 against Michigan. But that last win was in 1914, and by the 1940s it was a rout for Michigan, and then they just stopped playing.

But by that point (circa WWII and immediately after), college athletics at public universities had taken on a life of its own. There is even more involved with that story, including the GI Bill, the integration of public colleges, and so on. But the idea that a top university would also have a top athletic programs had been cemented in US culture.

But could we undo this now? Maybe, but it is hard to change institutions like this once they are so well-established. Like, Brown actually tried to back down some athletic programs not long ago, and ran into a lot of pushback from alums and such. It isn’t all alums who care, maybe not even more than a fraction, but that fraction tend to REALLY care. Again, public system officials tend to suggest a lot of elected state officials would push back on downgrading their programs, and maybe it is something similar–not everyone cares, maybe not a majority even, but the fraction who do care REALLY care.

Anyway, political issues aside, that is the basic big picture history of how all this happened in the US, at least as I understand it.

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I completely agree with the athletics part. In my journey with my son, we were stunned to see what was invested in sports facilities versus the “real school” at small to midsize schools. Sports usually brings in the lowest tuition per student as well. I believe in most of Europe, university sports are an exception.

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I’d imagine that depends on the sport and division. My D3 student-athlete (non-revenue sport) is full pay; hasn’t received a dime of tuition assistance.

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So, it is your position that it is completely impossible to differentiate between the intelligence levels of two individuals.

Do you believe this because you think all individuals have the exact same level of intelligence, or do you think that levels of intelligence do vary among different people, and we just don’t have a reliable way to measure that difference?

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Please try stating my position again, but this time avoid strawmanning, please.

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Not the case for hockey. Hockey players have choices between D3 and ACHA and they find ways to fund them.

What are we talking about here? :wink:

What does any of the Olympics, athletics, academic ability of Ivy League attendees have to do with colleges that cross off somebody’s list or moved up after doing a college tour?

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I’m really confused.

Let’s make this easy…in your opinion, yes or no, can intelligence be measured?

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Don’t doubt that’s the case, but hockey is only one sport among 24 overseen by the NCAA.

However, I also see a lot of D2 and D3 schools staying afloat by recruiting athletes. We have a nearby D3 college (that I’m sure is in trouble financially as they made big changes to their tuition structure as a marketing ploy) that lures kids in by giving them a spot on a team they will never play for. Some are cut before the season even begins and others will never even make it to the bench as there are too many players for them all to dress. The few promising prospects that stick it out through sophomore year never move on to playing as they are replaced by players from either JuCos or more competitive schools where they would never have a chance to start.

Many of the small, non-academically competitive D2 colleges have over 80% athletes. Let’s face it, these kids were never going to go to those particular schools if they couldn’t say “I’m playing D2”. To me, it seemed like they couldn’t fill more than 25% of their beds if it weren’t for “recruiting” athletes.

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It’s deeper than that: It’s that there is no agreed-upon, reliable definition of the concept of intelligence to begin with. The question is a meaningless one.

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This has been a long time informative thread - could we please get back to it and start another thread for your topic/spin on this thread.

Please and Thank You :slight_smile:

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Please take the back and forth to PM!

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To be clear, it’s the back and forth about athletics. Please start a new thread.

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This is not true. The average cost per student is actually lower than the tuition. The endowment draw is to cover the cost of scholarship, both need based and merit. Fully pays reduce the need to draw more from the endowment, but the average cost per student for most of these LACs is ~$40-$50k depending on the school and what % receive aid. It is nowhere near $100k much less the full price of tuition.

@KBdad - SLAC Professor. Depends on the school - it costs us 100k per student.

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Yeah, I mean my student is an incoming freshman and the amount of resources and opportunities already offered to him before even stepping foot on campus are pretty impressive. From academic support to career advancement. He has not even started school yet. I hope these kinds of opportunities are offered throughout his stay at the college. And if so, I can totally see how the spending per student reaches 6 figures.

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