But they were never “ideal” cities.
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There is no “ideal city”.
What counts as ideal differs from person to person.
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I have heard Wobegon Tech has a pretty ideal setting . . . .
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Oh, I think they were ‘ideal’ cities, but they are bigger than Burlington so colleges and college kids could isolate themselves. Even in Boulder the street people weren’t on campus as much as they were on the Pearl street mall, and usually in the summer when the college kids thin out. The cold weather would send those living on the street south. Now it is more of a year round situation, but still more concentrated on the mall than up by campus.
When I lived in Portland, there were those living on the streets but mostly under the bridges just off downtown. They’d be in the city center during the day collecting cans and bottles but not pitching tents on the sidewalks. I don’t think I saw them by the college campuses or in the ‘cool’ areas where bars, restaurants, movie theaters, etc were, just mostly downtown.
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I was in Burlington this past fall for 4 days and I am not sure I saw one homeless person or anyone I felt was on drugs, etc. We had a lovely time.
IMO what has happened is that crime and drugs and such are indeed way up from before AND at the same time, in absolute terms crime isn’t that high in comparison to many places. I actually pulled crime stats and it sure didn’t look that bad (even considering not all is reported, etc.).
I will say I didn’t talk to students, but given how many go to UVM from my area, and continue to do so, it cant be that bad.
Edit: I am sure others saw lots of unhoused folks, but we didn’t.
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Good advice! We also still have accepted student’s day as well - so that may offer a different perspective.
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We took our son on a New England college tour last summer. I heard quite a few comments from other parents about the urban distress visible across the country. I graduated from a high school near Burlington and went to UVM. I still have quite a few friends and family in the area. The pandemic changes, definitely for the worse, are striking. The ongoing situation at Burlington City Hall Park was a big negative for our son. However, UVM is still at the top of his list of choices.
We had our share of bad tours, negative college town experiences, and campuses that just didn’t impress our son. I’d double down on the comments emphasizing the academic visits. After an awful tour of UNH, we decided to head over on our own to the department of interest and ran into the chair. He was very generous with his time and he made a huge positive impression on our son. That’s the University of New Hampshire I will remember.
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To be fair, the sticking around on the weekend is a bit of a concern for the school 6 hours away. Possibly more so than any of the others. She seems stuck on this and has really moved past this school at this point, so now we are working on re-evaluating her other favorites. We are also going to tour one last school at the end of the month, so hoping we have a bit more clarity after that!
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For anyone interested, here is a link to the Burlington VT PD dashboard. Every crime, for several years, can be mapped, reviewed, etc.
As someone who has been going to Vermont and Burlington my entire life, there has always been a bit of a shady element in Burlington, but it’s worse. If you look at the maps on that link… a LOT of the crime is focused in a 10-20 block area near Church Street (the pedestrian/closed downtown section). You’d think with a bit of effort, the issues could be reigned in.
What’s a bit surprising is that there appear to be a fair number of assaults at the campus medical center area. That may be a by-product of the issues downtown?
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The real stats mirror what I saw & felt was happening there. Agree or disagree but drug use & crime go together. Money is needed, people under the influence, people self medicating mental health issues, etc.
I’m not saying don’t go to UVM or any other area school. It’s a personal subjective decision.
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I’m sorry to hear about Burlington. We visited a long time ago and loved it. D21 applied to UVM but we never got up there. It sounded like a good fit, except for the weather and travel. She’s still far away, but it’s warmer, 5 minutes from Amtrak and 30-45 from an airport.
This discussion about Burlington and crime is reminding me somewhat of my experience moving to Anchorage, when I heard people talking about the high crimes rates in the Mountain View neighborhood, and my response was to remember growing up near DC and going to grad school in Philadelphia, and thinking that people should just get over themselves.
But people here are legitimately nervous about going to Mountain View—one of my kids played in a YMCA youth basketball league, and most of the games were played in a community center in that neighborhood, and what with the discussions among so many of the middle-class parents before and after the games about how it was horrible that they’d make the kids play in such a dangerous area, I’m surprised that I didn’t injure my eyes from rolling them so hard.
But it’s all perception, right? It’s probably based in the same thing that leads so many Xers and Boomers to firmly believe that crime rates are higher now than in the 90s, which is (even with the spike that occurred with the pandemic) demonstrably untrue, and untrue by a lot—we prioritize things that are near us—just in terms of space rather than time. Mountain View does have higher crime rates than most of Anchorage—so it’s a dangerous, dangerous neighborhood in the minds of people who live here, never mind that it would be firmly middle of the pack if even that high in Philadelphia.
Similarly, if Burlington is a recent experience and/or your nearby point of reference, it’s going to feel like crime there is high, and that it has increased, whether or not one or both of those is untrue, because that’s your prioritized nearby experience.
Yay, welcome to the stupidity that is the human brain.
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I would switch “perception” to “media exposure”….
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I’m old enough to remember when Escape from New York was considered a plausible future scenario (unthinkable now to give up all that prime real estate for a big prison!), and I went to college in a “bad crime” city during the peak of the wave.
So, yeah, I also tend to have a similar attitude about how people sometimes see “bad crime” areas today. To me, it is also very similar to how I felt having grown up in the Upper Midwest, and then seeing how the people in DC reacted to a dusting of snow . . . .
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For a laugh, prowl the St Andrews sub on reddit. So many kids posting there from London and warmer parts of the US in a panic about the weather. And worse, current students chiming in to confirm how cold it is.
All it takes is one glance at the 10 day forecast there to lodge your pupils firmly at the tops of your eyes. (Yes it’s of course darker however)
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I have to tell you that I’m Canadian and my APRIL visit to St Andrews was freezing!
Re: Burlington and crime. We have a similar situation here in Portland, where the actual violent crime rate is much lower than many cities (although much higher than it used to be), but we have a lot of quality of life issues that make it feel very dangerous at times.
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Ha well there’s Canadian and then there’s Canadian.
But let’s be realistic - the historic average overnight low temperatures in the three coldest months of the year in St Andrews? 33F. That’s the average low, historically. Yes I know there’s wind and that makes a difference. But compared to Chicago? Not even close. Even Boston is meaningfully colder.
What it does not get is “hot” by any reasonable definition, with historical average highs in the mid 60s in the summer.
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I’m from Toronto, not Chicago cold but cold. It was snowing the week I was there in April and I think it was more that the old buildings were freezing. Beautiful school though, my friend who attended (which was why I was there) loved it. I’m trying to get my S25 to consider it!
Confirming once again that no matter where S24 goes, I am definitely going to St Andrews.
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Insulation?! We don’t need no stinking insulation!!
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