On IQ and career potential--What my daughter learned yesterday

berurah · December 8, 2006, 12:32pm

Last night my middle daughter (kid #3, age 15) was telling me about a lecture her English teacher gave yesterday in preparation for their class beginning the touching book, FLOWERS FOR ALGERNON.

In an effort to give an explanation of the continuum of IQ (the bell curve), the teacher had “researched” it on the internet and had brought in some material that attempted to give a more familiar and functional context to this abstract material. So, she presented the IQ scale in 10-point increments (80-90, 90-100, 100-110, and so forth) and proceeded to inform the students about what kinds of careers they can expect to attain if their IQs fall within that certain range. For example, according to the teacher, the vast majority of teachers would fall into the “superior” range, and the vast majority of doctors would fall into the “gifted” range. Plumbers, on the other hand, would fall into the “average range.”

HUH??? I was absolutely APPALLED at this overly simplified and in many ways innaccurate model that was presented to high school students!!! :eek:

At one point or another, my oldest five children have all had their IQs tested by the school district for placement into various programs. To the annoyance of some of them, I have NEVER, EVER disclosed (nor WOULD I ever) their IQs to them. I have good reasons for this. I never wanted my children to feel in any way constrained by an artificial number which imperfectly tests a highly abstract theoretical construct. As a former teacher myself, I have found that IQ alone is not particularly predictive of anything. In the absence of such things as motivation, encouragement, nurturing, personal choices, etc., it is a relatively useless construct. So, as a parent, I have emphasized those other things in an effort to help my children realize that THEY hold the keys to their futures…not an abstract number assigned to them by a school psychologist or educational diagostician.

D2 is a very bright and HIGHLY motivated kid who has had, for as long as I can remember, the desire to pursue a career as a physician. In the past three years, she has expressed an overt interest in becoming a pediatric oncologist (before that it was straight pediatrics). So, last night, I was pretty horrified when she turned to me with this odd look in her eyes and said, “Mom? Do you think I have the IQ to be a doctor??? Now, I don’t KNOW if I do!”

Of course at this point, I stopped everything I was doing to have a LONG talk with her about IQ, what it REALLY means (I was taught to administer the tests in my graduate program) and how much drive, motivation, and desire have to do with our own success. She seemed to understand what I was saying, but I could still detect a tiny element of “But you’re my MOTHER…you think I can do ANYTHING, but this authority figure said…”

sigh I am pretty aggravated about this, and I would LOVE to speak to the teacher about it, but my D made me PROMISE not to as I was so visible around here with the yearbook issue, and that has finally died down. So I promised her that I wouldn’t say anything about this, but the idea of other kids who may not have parents to reassure them hearing this type of thing really grates at me, KWIM?

What do you think of this classroom conversation? Would you feel the same way if your child were exposed to this?

~berurah

lealdragon · December 8, 2006, 12:37pm

Most definitely I would feel the same way! So much so that I would probably discuss with my daughter the alternate solution of speaking to the teacher, but not ‘making a fuss.’ She doesn’t want you talk to the teacher because she doesn’t want another fuss. But if you could quietly speak to the teacher and calmly point out what an impact this had on your daughter, it could be very enlightening and maybe the teacher will realize his/her mistake, without the necessity of drawing a lot of attention to the issue. It would, of course, be up to you to ensure that you don’t get too worked up when discussing it with the teacher, if you do pursue that idea.

I question whether IQ is even remotely accurate. I work for a testing company and I am astonished how they come up with their guidelines. There isn’t much room for thinking outside the box. It is now common knowledge that there are different types of intelligence and learning styles, and IQ tests don’t really allow for those either.

mathmom · December 8, 2006, 12:38pm

I think some high school teachers definitely don’t fall into the “superior” range.

I’d be appalled, but if your daughter doesn’t want you to say anything, you’re in a difficult spot.

APOL · December 8, 2006, 12:42pm

I do not feel it was appropiate—unless—the teacher included the very topics you have mentioned–so that the children can see these IQ ratings are just one element of life. Our society is so quick to compartimentilize people and their abilities. I think you handled the situation correctly.

berurah · December 8, 2006, 12:44pm

lealdragon~

I am in COMPLETE agreement with you. The problem is that I have already dealt with this teacher once regarding the yearbook issue (when she made it a big deal to take the opposing side IN CLASS, IN FRONT OF MY DAUGHTER, which REALLY embarrassed her). At that point, I simply emailed her and explained that I’d appreciate it if, as a teacher and an authority figure, she’d respect that she had kids who might differ with her and not address her personal feelings publicly, and she readily apologized and agreed, so all was fine with that. This is the ONE child of my six who is really sensitive to what others think about her/me. The others are much more willing to respectfully voice (or allow me to voice) an opposing opinion. My D, who shares most everything with me, said that she would not be as comfortable sharing these things if I felt I had to always address them. I let a tremendous number of things slide, but to me this is a biggie. However, it is a MUCH bigger deal to me to have the candor and trust of my D. ~berurah

emeraldkity4 · December 8, 2006, 12:52pm

As a former teacher myself, I have found that IQ alone is not particularly predictive of anything. In the absence of such things as motivation, encouragement, nurturing, personal choices, etc., it is a relatively useless construct. So, as a parent, I have emphasized those other things in an effort to help my children realize that THEY hold the keys to their futures…not an abstract number assigned to them by a school psychologist or educational diagostician.

ITA
I would talk to the teacher- students take quite seriously information coming from adults & while your kids have been blessed with your balanced persepective, kids who don’t have that at home, may even be influenced by bad information even more, but I would discuss it with D first

Look at Bill Gates for Petes sake-
college dropout!
Steve Jobs- college drop out!
yes they are obviously both quite brillant- but one piece of information is not the whole picture.

audiophile · December 8, 2006, 1:04pm

I think there’s another important lesson to be learned here: teachers can be wrong. If it were my daughter, I would not discuss it with the teacher. I would tell my daughter the teacher is misinformed and get her as much supporting documentation as is necessary to convince her.

Now, if my daughter wants to raise her hand in class and and debate the teacher after receiving the correct information, I would encourage her to do so. If not, that’s OK too.

berurah · December 8, 2006, 1:13pm

audio~

I agree. This is exactly how I’ve handled it. This would not be the first time she’s come across a “misinformed” teacher, and it won’t be the last. I do know, though, that the conversation unnerved her somewhat…in fact, that is why she brought it up with me. This particular D would most likely not be comfortable debating a teacher, but the rest of my kids? Watch out! (Though they would always be exceedingly repspectful! )

~berurah

katliamom · December 8, 2006, 1:51pm

Well, I have a kid who tests high in the highly superior range – and only gets by in school. (Guess what: even if your IQ is Einstein’s level, you still have to do homework. And turn it in.)

I have another kid who tests in the normal range – and is getting As & Bs in a university premed program. (Guess what: there’s no substitute for passion and work.)

Someone ought to educate this teacher - on the realities of IQ tests and tact.

pencilpusher · December 8, 2006, 1:57pm

I wonder if because you are a teacher you feel a particular need to speak to the teacher about this. As a non teacher (and presumably “gifted” MD) I am constantly amazed and the idiotic things some teachers say. I think you have to help you kids cope with teachers. Should they argue with them, should they just shut up and ingore the dumb stuff and embrace the good stuff? Everyone needs to make their own decision on that one - - and live with the consequences. This will not be the last time your child will face this issue. And it doesn’t stop when you get to college. I was dealing with this at times in medical school (“women can’t do surgery” as one expample.) and even in residency.

Allmusic · December 8, 2006, 1:58pm

I would handle it “in house” with your daughter; explain that IQ tests are often poor predictors of much of anything long term, that the teacher was off base, etc., that every person should follow his/her dream or passion, and nothing is standing in her way of a medical career, if she chooses to work for that goal.

Then I would pretty much leave it alone. The teacher made an error, but I think your discussion with your own D is more important than any possible one with the teacher.

sax · December 8, 2006, 2:05pm

Wow…so your daughter sounds like she really wants you to keep this in house so I’d go with her on that. You don’t want her to stop telling you this stuff…

Last year the carreer counselor for my sons school was telling all her students to only apply to three colleges as it wasn’t fair to other kids if you were accepted to too many. I have always wondered how many kids this advice has hurt.

NJres · December 8, 2006, 2:11pm

I think I have seen the data that was misused by your D’s teacher. The data is somewhat interesting, and lists occupations and the average IQ of that occupation/profession. The data does not include the standard deviation for each profession. In other words, you can not deduce from this data that a certain minimum IQ is required to be a doctor. There could be plenty of higher and lower IQ doctors around that high average. Likewise there could be more than a few high IQ plumbers in the mix.

Observing the average IQ of a profession is one thing, but to work backwards with the same data and suggest that with a given IQ you therefore belong in a profession with an average IQ equal to your measured IQ is not correct, false, abuse of data, and unfortunately a very very typical application of “statistics.”

berurah · December 8, 2006, 2:21pm

APOL…YES! See, here’s the dealio: that discussion was FAR from complete without at least a perfunctory nod given to the other elements, and that was not done. D said that at one point, a boy in the class who knew his tested IQ to be 115 said, “Oh…so I’m going to be a _________!!!” (Sorry, can’t remember what occupation he mentioned, but rest assured, it fell within the “designated range.” ;)

IMHO, she already has shown poor judgment in terms of tact with the yearbook issue. Your post was excellent, and I plan to share it with my D! Several of my own kids are separated far more by drive/motivation than they are by IQ.

pencilpusher~

I am a former teacher who has been at home now for 20 years with six children. I think I am motivated much more by my daughter’s reaction than anything else. I was truly taken aback at how much credence she gave that woman’s misguided words, this after almost 16 years of our encouragement and belief in her and in her perfectly sufficient abilities. And, as a person who mentors (informally) quite a few other young people (I call 'em my adopteds, and I have quite a few! ), I am worried on behalf of those kids who may not have a parent that would take the time (or perhaps have the educational knowledge) to temper the influence of a “professional.”

You are right, though, about teachers all the way up the line (absolutely NOT to bash teachers, as I WAS one, though we all know that not everyone is suited to the job). My oldest S, who was exceedingly high functioning, learned by high school to pick his battles and to just let some stuff slide. A good lesson, to be sure.

~berurah

Roger_Dooley · December 8, 2006, 2:26pm

NJres makes the key point - averages are largely meaningless, one needs to know the whole distribution curve to make any statements about the probability of succeeding in a career; I suspect that looking at all of the data would show that IQ is a largely useless tool for career prediction.

One thing that’s definitely true is that in most states the standards for academic accomplishment by teachers are lax. There are brilliant teachers, and not-so-brilliant ones. Just as knowing a person’s IQ doesn’t tell you much about their real-life abilities, knowing that a person is a teacher doesn’t tell you much about their ability to interpret scientific or statistical data.

Presenting this kind of partial information to kids is unfortunate, though I suspect it happens more frequently than we think.

sjmom2329 · December 8, 2006, 2:36pm

B, I just wanted to add my agreement to the above posts. I also thought I’d add that my response to the very few questions my kids have had about IQ is to tell them that they are bright enough to do anything they choose. I add that being bright typically isn’t enough – all the other attributes (drive, ambition, hard work, kindness, empathy) are what will determine success in life.

Fwiw, when my kids were growing up, I always tried to support the other adults in their lives (classroom teachers, music teachers, scout leaders etc.) I did not criticize their behavior to my kids, in an effort to present a seamless interface with figures of authority. But when they reached HS, I felt free to point out when I thought a teacher was wrong. Maybe you can point that out to your daughter, without making a fuss at school. I understand your desire to address it with the teacher, but it may not end well.

soozievt · December 8, 2006, 2:37pm

I agree with the posts by audiophile (#7) and AllMusic (#11) and use this experience to talk with your D as you have. She’ll be exposed to lots of misinformation and she is coming to you and you are there to help her process it and teach her and also support her endeavors. I would not talk to the teacher about this. (if the teacher had done something overtly offensive to your D individually, different story) However, as Audiophile suggested, IF your D is into it and has some research to explain why this info. from the teacher was misleading, she certainly could be armed with it and as part of class discussion bring up what she has read and found about the correlation of IQ to careers, etc. It need not be a debate but simply to augment the discussion about IQ and what she has learned about it. If she is not interested, then leave it be in the classroom and keep using these situations and experiences as teachable moments with your D at home.

dmd77 · December 8, 2006, 2:38pm

Bill Gates may be a college dropout, but I have no doubt his IQ is very high. He did get 800s on his SATs, and my husband describes him as “the smartest person I’ve ever met.” (My husband is the second smartest person I’ve ever met, with my kids tied for first.)

I was told many years ago that it took an IQ of about 125 to graduate from college, and when my kids had their IQs tested, they were told that their IQs were high enough that they “could do anything they wanted to do” IF THEY WORKED HARD ENOUGH. IQ is simply one predictor.

Flowers for Algernon deals with all the issues you’ve raised, and is long enough that I expect some of the kids will bring up the very kind of slotting you object to. 15-year-olds are very sensitive to such issues, and I would trust their ability to see right through the teacher.

As for whether plumbers have average IQs, I for one doubt it. Most of the plumbers I’ve met run independent businesses and do an excellent job of it.

kluge · December 8, 2006, 2:40pm

No wonder we have trouble keeping people in the teaching profession! While I probably agree with many of the opinions expressed regarding IQ tests, etc., the criticism of the teacher - ranging from tut-tutting behind the teacher’s back for various proposals to “confront” the teacher with her sins - is misplaced in my opinion. Look - tactless and oversimplifying as the teacher might have been, the basic message she gave the students is…

true.

People have varying quantities of those mental characteristics and talents we call “intelligence” as tested by IQ tests, and people with differing amounts of that component are in fact most likely to find themselves in careers which correspond (roughly) to that number. I’ve been through this magilla with my kid’s sports activities - you’ll always get some guy who objects to anyone commenting on a high school athlete’s size, and pointing out the occasional professional athlete who is under 5’8". The fact is, if you want to be a professional basketball player, you need to be really tall. If you want to be a professional baseball player and you’re less than six feet tall - you’re going to have a hard time.

And if you want to be a doctor, you’d better have a good chunk if IQ. Yeah, I’m sure there are the equivalent of David Eckstein or Muggsy Bogues out there, but is it really such a crime to be realistic with students - even if it may cause them to question their dreams? Or even start them to thinking about the positive values of a life goal which is more realistically attainable? Or maybe just make them realize that if they want to realize their dream they’ll need to work harder than just about anyone else, and even then that might not be enough? Because that is reality.

We all want to protect our kids from the big bad real world out there, but I don’t think it’s such a crime for a teacher to let a dose of realism creep into the classroom every once in a while, even if it makes a kid (gasp) think realistically about themselves. It seems to me that everyone did their job here: the teacher was a teacher, the mom was a mom, the kid was a kid. No harm, no foul, let it go.

sjmom2329 · December 8, 2006, 2:40pm

Also, I’ve heard that Richard Feynman supposedly had an IQ of 125, which is not exactly gifted. While I doubt that number, it points out how foolish it would be to limit someone’s options in life based on something like an IQ ratio.

On IQ and career potential--What my daughter learned yesterday

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