<p>I too despise the adages that kids are filled with in elementary school – “if you can dream it, you can do it” and that ilk. What I have told my children is that you can do anything you want to do, but that doesn’t mean you will be famous, rich, or even successful. For example, my kids will never achieve what Soovievt’s daughter has already done in musical theater, but there will always be community theater and other opportunities to enjoy singing and dancing. They won’t be professional atheletes, but there will always be opportunities to enjoy playing and competing.</p>
<p>So, not everyone is going to be able to do high level physics, but anyone can enjoy learning about how the universe works. Not everyone will be able to master the subject matter necessary for med school, but everyone can find a way to learn more about health, help others who are sick, or whatever.</p>
<p>The problem arises when you expect the world to recognize and reward what it is you are doing.</p>
<p>We really don’t come into the world with equal mental/physical/emotional abilities, but we each come with a unique combination that can be used to its fullest.</p>
<p>I personally have not see any evidence of a qualitative racial differences in intelligence. There are folks with 150 IQ and there are folks with 70 IQ in all racial groups. Groups do differ where the majority of them cluster, but we really don’t know why. It is suspected to be the result of environmental and/ genetic influence. </p>
<p>Anything having to do with IQ is a highly controversial topic. Researchers in the field have a hard time getting funding for their work, and that is where the Pioneer Fund comes in. I wish regular funding agencies are less politically correct.</p>
<p>My problem with advocacy research is that it is too much advocacy and not enough research. Often the empirical evidence are twisted to fit their particular points of view. One common tricks is to assume that since there is a quantitative difference in IQ scores among different racial and ethic groups, there is necessarily a qualitative difference as well. Another assumption is that differences within a racial group can be extrapolated to differences between groups. No empirical evidence for such assumptions exists.</p>
<p>As far as cultural bias goes, it can be looked at from different angles. On one level, we can say that all our institutions are culture-bounded. For an IQ test to have utility and predictive validity, it simply can not be culture-free. On another level, one can argue that the IQ test is culture-free because it predicts all groups equally well, as long as they are native-born English-speaking.</p>
<p>I am no expert on this Field and I have only scratched some of the nuances.</p>
I totally agree with this. What my D’s teacher left out completely was the motivational aspect. It was not discussed at all.</p>
<p>
Though I can understand your point, I am not in full agreement with this statement. If you can’t dream in elementary school, then when can you? When my preschool kids told me that they wanted to be a policeman or a fireman, I didn’t choose to interject reality into their little dreams at that point. That would come on its own. And I know VERY few kids who are h.s. age who still harbor the 10-year-old’s dream of being Michael Jordan. The process of moving from babyhood to toddlerhood to preschool age to school age is a long, continuous growth cycle in which the vast majority of kids becomes increasingly aware of their talents, skills, abilities, and yes, their inadequacies. It has always been my feeling, both as a mother and as a former teacher, that these kiddos didn’t need a great deal of help in shooting down their pie-in-the-sky dreams. What they do need is someone who lovingly guides and motivates. My kids have no delusions of grandeur, but they’ve not needed either their teachers <em>or</em> me to bring them back to earth…they’ve figured this out all by themselves.</p>
<p>Canuckguy~ </p>
<p>How does THIS statement you made in an earlier post…
mesh with this statement you made above?
Since Jensen et al have basically contended a racial difference in general IQ, it seems that you are being contradictory here…Please correct me if I am taking your statements incorrectly.</p>
<p>I stand by my statements. You sure you looked at primary sources? There is so much misinformation out there that reliance on secondary sources is pretty dangerous. Folks on both side of the political spectrum seem so determine to misrepresent them. It is on the verge of mob behaviour.</p>
<p>I cannot claim to have looked at the primary sources in many years. I will, however, make it a point to do so after I get out from Hanukkah for 8, school plays, Christmas concerts, my oldest D’s 18th b-day on New Year’s Eve, my son being home from college, etc., etc., etc.!!!</p>
<p>But really, Canuckguy, THIS?
To my knowledge, the good ol’ average American is typically unaware of the research of Jensen et al. Though it has been debated hotly within the academic community, I would hardly characterize the debate as “mob behavior.” That’s a bit overly dramatic, don’t you think? </p>
<p>I saw Phillip Rushton on a Phil Donahue show where the show almost degenerated into fisticuffs. Another one with David Suzuki where Rushton was treated with such icy disdain by Suzuki you would have thought he was debating a mass murderer. Even the CBC, Canada’s national radio, was using mocking laughter sound bites in the background when they interviewed him. The premier of the province where he works was calling the university to “fire” him although he has tenure…etc. </p>
<p>While I am less familiar with the treatment other researchers living and working in other jurisdictions, I do remember Hans Eysenck was physically attacked for his work in class. Character assassination in written form seems to be the order of the day.</p>
<p>This to me is well beyond a “hot debate”. I don’t think it is unfair to describe it as “on the verge of mob behavior”. </p>
<p>I am not talking about average Americans; I am talking about those folks who should know better.</p>
<p>I have professional and personal experience that may be of help to parents here on CC. Before retiring I used to do testing that makes up part of a complete educational assessment. It is interesting to note that I can not remember an incident where my results did not dovetail with the WISC, even though the tests were administered by different people in different sittings. Pretty amazing if you ask me.</p>
<p>I have two Ds. D1 graduated a year early from HS and still managed to graduate second in her class. Because of extremely strong grades and EC, she was accepted into one of the most competitive programs in the country.
(For her year, 5% of applicants enrolled. I don’t know what the yield was).</p>
<p>Choosing the program was easy. It is one of very few that major international banks and consulting firms came to recruit, and D1 was looking for a placement in NY or London. What she did not expect was the “grading on the curve”, and that these firms only interview those with A averages (top 5% of the class). I suspect the school and the firms are in collusion-I will come to recruit if you limit the number of applicants.</p>
<p>Although D1 is very driven, so were her classmates. She found to her horror that it did not matter how hard she worked her grades remained the same. The ones getting A(s) in one class also get A(s) in other classes. In short, she was outclassed intellectually. These on the honor roll are the best of the best- hardworking and extremely bright. </p>
<p>She is working now. The name and reputation of the program guaranteed that, although not the dream job that she was hoping for. They found her bright, but she knows better.;)</p>
<p>Some parents on CC are saying that SATs and ACTs should not be used. We don’t use them here and I wish they do. D1 would have a better awareness of where she stood relative to other students that were her competitors. Since she was doing so well, she never did an education assessment and we have no idea what her IQ scores would be. The fact that she was not accepted into a gifted program did tell me that she did not score in the top 2%. </p>
<p>To make it short, the experience traumatized her and she is still recovering. I hope the information is of help to some kids and parents out there. Occupations such as law, medicine, investment banking and the like are different from most jobs. It is not so much that you pick them as much as they pick you.</p>
When my preschool kids told me that they wanted to be a policeman or a fireman, I didn’t choose to interject reality into their little dreams at that point. That would come on its own. And I know VERY few kids who are h.s. age who still harbor the 10-year-old’s dream of being Michael Jordan. The process of moving from babyhood to toddlerhood to preschool age to school age is a long, continuous growth cycle in which the vast majority of kids becomes increasingly aware of their talents, skills, abilities, and yes, their inadequacies. It has always been my feeling, both as a mother and as a former teacher, that these kiddos didn’t need a great deal of help in shooting down their pie-in-the-sky dreams. What they do need is someone who lovingly guides and motivates. My kids have no delusions of grandeur, but they’ve not needed either their teachers <em>or</em> me to bring them back to earth…they’ve figured this out all by themselves.</p>