<p>dos~</p>
<p>I have always contended that my kids could do WHATEVER they wished with their lives, just as long as I have…</p>
<p>…one doctor, one lawyer, one CPA, one plumber/mechanic, one airline pilot, one techie, and one in the entertainment industry–this one will have to double as I only have six kids <em>lol</em>. I ask NOTHING more than that. ;)</p>
<p>The WISC is in its fourth permutation. I have been administering this test (in all its permutations) for 25 years and definitely do not see that there has been tremendous variability or scores trending upwards over that time. I still see a complete bell curve now, as I did at the beginning of my career. </p>
<p>I found the Cornell article very interesting though.</p>
<p>Have you ever heard the question: what’s the difference between a physicist and a plumber? Ans.: plumbers are paid more.</p>
<p>That a teacher would tell such a story in class about IQ does not surprise me, although it does dismay me. It is, of course, a complete fairy tale and it’s one of those moments where you talk to your child about thinking critically about what they’re being taught, so it’s an opportunity for one of those life lessons. I wouldn’t take it any further, either, because your D has asked you not to, and as a mother of several, if you had to make an appointment with everyone in need of correction, you’d never be able to sit down to dinner as a family. </p>
<p>I remember reading a couple years ago that teachers, as a group, receive among the lowest SAT scores of any group of college students. This was back when a perfect score was 1600, and I think the average for teachers was around 1000.</p>
<p>A 1000 score would put them around average for the test overall I believe.</p>
<p>
To finish that thought, I remember reading that at many colleges, they, as a group, have the lowest SAT scores entering and the highest average GPAs leaving.</p>
<p>
<em>lol</em> SO true. As if the basketball, soccer, theatre, choir concerts, etc. weren’t enough! :)</p>
<p>I do, though, consider what she said at worst, misinformation and at best, incomplete information, so I’m not fully comfortable leaving it. But I am more comfotable with that than I am going against my daughter’s very politely put wishes. </p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>Berurah,
OK. Now I’m really jealous!</p>
<p>For me it was particularly funny to read the teachers rather narrow assumptions on what careers a certain IQ might lead to. My son tested highish in IQ (130+) but has some learning problems (which is why he was tested). School was always stressful him and he has discovered he likes working with his hands and is thinking about becoming - guess what - a plumber (which I am fine with if he is happy). So tell your daughter that IQ is in no way a predictor of what she can become - it is how she uses that IQ. Coincidentally my daughter is also thinking of becoming a pediatric oncologist. I have no idea what her IQ is ( in our area it is only tested if a child has learning difficulties and after the parents fight for it) and don’t feel it neccessary to find out. I would cetainly never use a number (IQ) to limit her possibilities. So many other factors - persistance, hard work, personality - come into play. Hope your daughter follows her dreams.</p>
<p>weenie~</p>
<p><em>ROFL</em>!!! You might not be if you had six yacking at you at once! :eek:</p>
<p>swimcatsmom~</p>
<p>What a coincidence that your D and mine both have that same specific aspiration! 
I wish your D all the very best. My D would be PERFECTLY suited to the job, I think, as she has always been something of a “kid magnet,” even working with a friend of mine in a home daycare situation when she was just 10 (she did everything from diaper changes to meal preparation!). She was also the one who tended to the cuts and scrapes of all the others when I could barely stand to do it! <em>lol</em> I know that my D has the capability of being anything she wants to be…she was one of the three of mine tested for the gifted program, and her abilities would allow her to achieve just about anything that she desires. </p>
<p>I know what you mean about the school district and testing, though. They have never given me a hard time about having my kids tested (all were tested as a result of teacher recommendation, two with a bit more prompting from me–the ones tested for LD). But MAN, are they ever S-L-O-W!!!</p>
<p>That is interesting about your son. I have met some incredibly intelligent plumbers who love their work. The last one we used to put in our new whirlpool tub was extremely astute, and he was in constant demand.</p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>Just was wondering if anyone here remembered the case a few years back where a guy sued after being turned down after applying to be a police officer because his IQ (about 125) was too high. The courts upheld the decision:
<a href=“http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A06E2DB143DF93AA3575AC0A96F958260[/url]”>http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A06E2DB143DF93AA3575AC0A96F958260</a>
<a href=“http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_56314.html[/url]”>http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_56314.html</a></p>
<p>
Not one of the lowest…THE lowest. Let’s hope that changes as the GPA requirements have been bumped up in most places.</p>
<p>hmm
recently a former D.A ( his law degree was from Willamette University) who became a police officer ( and county deputy) was killed . He found plenty to keep himself intellectually challenged it sounded like. He was a real asset to the community.
<a href=“http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003467359_cox08m.html[/url]”>http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003467359_cox08m.html</a></p>
<p>Wow. I think that if this were a younger child OR if you didn’t have the history with this teacher that you do, OR if your daughter were less sensitive to your doing so, it’s very possible I might have tried to have a friendly conversation with the teacher. Under the circumstances, though, I’d have handled this the same way as you did. I can certainly empathize with your feeling that it was an inappropriate and misinformed lesson plan. </p>
<p>I’m sure that any educational psychologist worth anything will tell you that the full scale score, or IQ number, is totally meaningless in a vacuum. That “number,” as I know you know with your background, and as others have pointed out here, is made up of many subtest scores and are further divided into areas of performance and verbal scoring. It takes a professional many hours of testing to do an accurate evaluation and diagnosis. While areas of strength and weaknesses in processing, memory, speed, vocabulary and more can certainly be assessed, it is important to do so within some context. That is a far cry from the example that your D’s teacher gave of taking full scale test scores (again these are completely meaningless out of context) and attributing actual career paths to those! </p>
<p>People may be gifted (there may be areas or subtests on the IQ test where the student tests at gifted levels) and yet struggle with LDs or lower scores in other areas. I know people just like this, some of them within my own family. One, with a <em>significant</em> LD, graduated with honors from an Ivy and went on to become a successful lawyer. Another was diagnosed with severe reading issues, but was fortunate enough to get the support services he needed, went on to college, and med school (taped his lectures from college on) - today he’s a well known and successful MD.</p>
<p>IMO, it’s also foolish to give the kids the impression that high intelligence will magically translate into success and a good career. H once ran into an old classmate, a HYP grad, on a trip to another city - playing an instrument for money in the streets - really! I always tell the kids that as far as success, it’s not about how smart you are, but what you do with your potential that counts.</p>
<p>calmom: In NJ, those with the highest civil service scores are interviewed first. THe jobs are theirs to lose & that only happens with evidence of a psychological problem, criminal record, etc. I’d sure hate to rely on a police force that was artifically chosen for average intelligence & no higher! My brother has a much higher IQ than the rejected candidate, a degree in philosophy, and he joined the fire department in a busy, urban city. Nothing boring about his job! (Including being called to duty on 9/11) In his opinion, the firefighters he works alongside are quite intelligent. I also know several cops who have retired after their 20 year/full pension service period & now have MBAs & JDs. They are in high demand. I also believe most fire & police forces now require new hires to have at least 60 college credits.</p>
<p>Forgot to mention my high school friend who started out as a cop & is now a federal judge. She was always an adventure seeker. Highly intelligent.</p>
<p>Don’t knock that high IQ kid playing music on the street for money, Roshke. That may well be my kid in the future (already is, but I hope he graduates to the “real world” one day…we shall see!). :D</p>
<p>edit: clarity</p>
<p>Berurah,
Can you stand one more IQ perspective/story? Long ago, I was sitting in study hall (held in the hs auditorium) with a few girlfriends. The hs football coach walked by us and stopped to chat. Somehow the conversation turned to looks vs intelligence. He said “the prettier you are, the dumber you are” to us…we were all struck dumb…didn’t really know what to say… I vaguely remember protesting…when he said he could prove it. He tagged us as beautiful, pretty and average and then went into the front office and got our IQ’s. He came back and sure enough the prettiest gal had the lowest IQ…and the gal with the glasses had the highest IQ…and the other gal was right in the middle. I was the gal with the glasses…and I can tell you that I laughed in public with everyone…but I felt a bit sad that I was the “ugly” one. Luckily, I had a steady boyfriend…captain of the football team, ironic yes? I share this because I was at a similiar age as your daughter…so I was still impressionable. My overall impression was that the coach was a jerk. I came away thinking that average was a good thing…harder to be a “target” of anyone else’s prejudice? I suspect that your kids are all very astute and cognizant of many, many things. I have to believe that your daughter will easily be able to relegate this lecture to its proper place in her HS experience…a brief glimpse into a very big topic. Nature vs Nurture. </p>
<p>My other thought would be that specific abilities might assist one in a specific trade or occupation. But, our “free” society gives us the right to choose…perhaps even the right to choose a career path that does not suit us…whereas in the old days in the Soviet Union (perhaps still in China?) kids were given something like an IQ test…but the results actually did result in their career placements. I think it would be fun to have a dialog with your daughter about whether she would like to be tested now and have the results of a test as a teen determine the “rest” of her life? That kind of a discussion might easily do more for shaping any child’s EQ… regardless of their IQ. </p>
<p>Just remind her also that regardless of her career choice, the number 1 factor that determines success is height!! So, a great pair of high heels might be the perfect xmas present! </p>
<p>I also agree with others who say respect your daughter’s request to keep this at home…you would be better off talking with this teacher at a time when there isn’t anything at stake…to try to make the teacher aware of how they are perceived…without it being a specific issue. So much easier to do this stuff when there isn’t something stuck in our craws. ( I have fired a few salvos in my parenting career…there are a few I regret…in spite of my high IQ…LOL)</p>
<p>Allmusic, I know, I know! ( I was wondering if someone might call me on that comment) I’m sure some very accomplished musicians (and people) have done this along the way!</p>
<p>
roshke~</p>
<p>Excellent post! And yes, the above was my primary objection. Like you, I do think that my D is fully capable of putting this information into context, <em>but</em>…she had ME to help her do it. My concern is even more so with those who do not have someone who is experienced within the educational system to counter the opinion offered by a “professional educator.” </p>
<p>The reason why this information took my daughter so aback was this: She was served in the gifted program throughout elementary school before she was tested for permanent placement in fifth grade (if you are not permanently placed, you cannot receive services in the upper grades). She missed permanent placement by a hair, so now, she is not “technically” within the “gifted” range. So, when the teacher said that physicians are almost exclusively drawn from the “gifted” range of IQ, my D became concerned that somehow her natural abilities, lacking that one or two extra points, would not be enough. Before the lecture at school, there was no doubt in her mind that she could achieve her dream, and by the time I get done with her, any doubt she has now will be fully erased , but this was completely and totally unnecessary. The English class was an Honors class, BTW. ;)</p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>perhaps you should show her the CollegeBoard data that report that SAT scores of future educators is barely above the SAT scores of folks who are planning on going into the trades. Students who self-report Education career on their SAT app score less than 500 per test.</p>
<p>[No flames intended, since two good friends are elem teachers and they were both NMFs.]</p>
<p>berurah - I’m really not trying to beat on teachers, but it wouldn’t surprise me that they would have the highest GPAs upon graduation - because they were in the Education School.</p>