On IQ and career potential--What my daughter learned yesterday

Parent Cafe
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<p>“Although I don’t doubt what you say is true, at least in my district I really do see the administrators and teachers bending over backwards to expect MORE of these kids, not less, and yet the results have still been poor.”</p>

<p>Then something else has to do be done because what’s being tried clearly isn’t working. It is a national crisis, and is being basically ignored. </p>

<p>“Unfortunately, on parent night it was abundantly clear that there were NO parents of color in my son’s AP classes.”</p>

<p>Are there kids of color in your S’s AP classes? My experience is that usually in AP classes, the kids of color who are in them come from upper middle class or well off, highly educated homes, and their parents are very involved. However, even in schools that are majority URMs, there may be very few URMs in AP classes.</p>

<p>My younger S was the only black male in his junior class in the IB program in his school, which was 80% black. There were about 8 black females. District wide, black students are about 42% of the public school population. </p>

<p>I’ve been extremely active in school organizations, including being president of a parent group. I have found that URMs tend not to be in AP/IB classes because:

  1. Their parents – even if highly educated don’t know about the importance of those classes. Many of the parents came up in segregated school systems that lacked those classes. </p>

<ol>
<li><p>The students are less likely than others to be steered by faculty into those classes. Often this starts at the 7th grade level when students may have the opportunity to take high school math classes. Often URMs – even if the parents are doctors – don’t know about this opportunity or don’t know about why it’s important to get on that track if they are capable of doing that work.</p></li>
<li><p>The students may refuse to take AP/IB classes because they don’t want to be among the only students of their ethnicity or race in them. </p></li>
<li><p>Once in the classes, teachers may not expect much of the students – treating them as if they are successful for simply passing the class while encouraging other students to excel. I experienced this with both of my sons. Probably the most egregious example was when a top administrator at the school contratulated one S for having a report card that was filled with Bs and Cs. S’s PSAT score was National Merit Commended, his SAT v & M was a 1540. His scores were higher than the school’s valedictorian, who, of course, was carrying an unweighted 4.0.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>URMs – particularly black males – can get expressions of admiration from administration for simply showing up in class and graduating with a regular h.s. dip0loma within a year of when they’re supposed to graduate (Where I live, many black males end up getting some kind of alternative diploma and still are considered successful). With such low expectations, many don’t bother at all to challenge themselves.</p>

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<p>As for the lack of minority parents participating in school activities: Most of the educated, professional ones whom I know do participate, though, of course there are exceptions, sometimes very shocking ones. </p>

<p>It can be, however, difficult to impossible for parents to participate in school activities if they are working two jobs, single parenting with kids who need sitters, lack transportation. Some also are very uneducated and are intimidated about being involved in their kids’ schools and having to interact with people like teachers.</p>

<p>And, of course, some are highly dysfunctional and don’t give a darn. Some are in jail, on drugs, too wrapped up in their romance of the minute to care about their kdis.</p>

<p>We need to find ways to compensate for their deficits so their kids get a decent chance to succeed.</p>

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<p>EK4: Washington state law actually requires that parents be allowed to place their children in whatever course they want, which is why throughout Washington you will find schools allowing students to self-select into AP (even if their teachers discourage this).</p>

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<p>I totally agree. I also find the lack of representation by minority kids in music, arts, theater, etc. to be striking. </p>

<p>How do you think we best address this national crisis? (and I agree that it is)</p>

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<p>I think that first of all, we need to act like it’s a national crisis.</p>

<p>Whenever the issue comes up, people act like, “What’s wrong with those people?” The point is that those are all of our kids. If we don’t want the problems to continue with each generation, we’ll need to find a way of breaking the cycle now. If the parents won’t accept responsibility, the country has to accept responsibility for educating those kids and helping raise them so they know how to parent their kids better than their parents are doing with them.</p>

<p>I’ve also heard that low income parents get more involved in schools when the schools are open more hours and offer more services such as having community health clinics and libraries on the school grounds. It takes a village… Make the school that village.</p>

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<p>Once in the classes, teachers may not expect much of the students – treating them as if they are successful for simply passing the class while encouraging other students to excel. I experienced this with both of my sons. Probably the most egregious example was when a top administrator at the school contratulated one S for having a report card that was filled with Bs and Cs. S’s PSAT score was National Merit Commended, his SAT v & M was a 1540. His scores were higher than the school’s valedictorian, who, of course, was carrying an unweighted 4.0.</p>

<p>I cannot imagine how frustrating this is for parents- because I know how frustrated I was when I saw it at one of my daughters previous schools.
Its been my experience as a more moderate liberal, that some of the educated, liberals in our area, who bend over backwards to be “PC”, are actually some of the most prejudiced, because they lower standards and expectations for those that they perceive as “less fortunate”, although they would never tolerate that for their own kids.</p>

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<p>to get it back on topic :wink:
D has been working in tech support since graduation, which was similar to her workstudy job at Reed- * somewhat* although, it wasn’t something that paid very well, or even led to anything, and because she couldn’t take anytime off to come with us on our annual vacation, she recently gave her notice.</p>

<p>I felt bad about that, while I was happy she was still coming with us on our trip, it also sounded like that she had found things to like about the job & I was concerned that they wouldn’t give her a good recommendation, however she said that when she gave notice, they looked at her background and commented that they didn’t expect her to have stayed as long as she did!</p>

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<p>Well, the thing is, I am not sure what the district is trying to accomplish by labeling all these kids in my child’s school as gifted. Yes, if it were a school that was full of professors’ kids, I could understand it. But that is not the case here. It seems bizarro to me. Might as well just say everyone is gifted. When I told my older daughter that half of the younger D’s class is gifted, she quoted a line from “The Incredibles”-- “when everyone is super, than no one will be . . .” </p>

<p>They changed the test to determine giftedness a few years ago. It used to be that far fewer were considered “gifted.” It doesn’t really matter in our district anyway. The funding for the “gifted program” is a couple of thousand $$ for each school. Perhaps, just as we have had grade inflation over the years, we now have “gifted inflation” here . . . Another thing that is rather odd about the “gifted program” is that they divide the kids into two groups for a short period each day-- the “gifted” children and the “English Language Learners.” At least that is what I was told at the first GATE (gifted and talented education) meeting here.</p>

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<p>

As if these two groups were mutually exclusive???!!! :eek:</p>

<p>p.s. Although that WOULD give relevance to Linda Gottfredson’s work I cited above! <em>ugh</em> :(</p>

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<p>berurah – exactly!! </p>

<p>To clarify somewhat – Some of the kids in the English Language Learners group are not English Language Learners. Anyway, I hope they think this through and come up with a better plan. Whoever came up with this idea is definitely “not gifted” IMO.</p>

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<p>Maybe the “Learners” group includes disadvantaged children for whom standard English might as well be a 2nd language? That’s what I would do.</p>

<p>Someone should tell Ms. Gottfredson it’s not race, but socio-economic group.</p>

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<p>There have been several studies showing poorer performance even by high income minority children from good school districts like Evanston and Shaker Heights.</p>

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<p>So, I talked to my youngest D’s teacher to clarify, because I wanted to be sure I know what is going since I started posting on this topic. The teachers are required to spend half an hour a day with ELD kids (English Language Development). So, I guess the idea is that this is a good time to split the kids into groups and have one teacher focus on the ELD kids and the other on the gifted kids. But then there is a group of kids who fall into neither category and they are put in the ELD group, but given something to different to do. None of the ELD kids tested as gifted-- I’m not sure what to make of that. I can conjecture that perhaps they did not understand the directions to the test? I didn’t ask, but I’m fairly certain that there are kids in the gifted group whose first language is not English, but they are not classified ELD, because they have become fluent.</p>

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<p>Berurah, I think it’s safe to say that Gottfredson is a controversial figure. Even her <em>own</em> website (page nine of the “personal history”) contains an interview that references a time line of her career. It acknowledges the fact that her promotion to full professor at the University of Delaware was done under the protest of many in her department (who objected to her ideological views). There was also a legal arbitration that ruled in favor of Gottfredson accepting donations from that Pioneer Group, something that University of Delaware originally outright refused to accept because of the group’s connections with racist causes. </p>

<p>From what I was able to read about her, my feelings about this professor would be the same as yours (an understatement). However, no evidence that your D’s teacher is aware of any of this. It goes to show how you can’t take the results of any purported study for granted - one always has to consider the source.</p>

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<p>

This doesn’t speak to the possible cultural biases in IQ testing (and other standardized testing as well).</p>

<p>

Yes, exactly, but also perhaps cultural bias as well.</p>

<p>I definitely would not want this woman’s work to be cited to my child as the definitive word on <em>anything</em>, particularly if I were the parent of a minority student.</p>

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<p>Re: Gottfredson</p>

<p>I don’t think you can get into any discussion about IQ as related to issues such as ability, educational policy, & careers, without keeping in mind the history of IQ testing & its close relation, including use & misuse of research, with the eugenics movement, which in turn provided some of the “science” supporting the genocidal policies of Nazism and similarly nefarious laws in the US, such as forced sterilization of the “feeble minded”. </p>

<p>I believe that most modern researchers & experts agree that what we call “IQ” is the result of combination of genetics and environmental influences, with environmental influences including such things as early nutrition and exposure to environmental toxins, as well as parental nurturing and stimulation - with the genetic aspect probably accounting for no more than 50% of the end result. It is also very well documented at this point that stress has a negative impact on early brain development – so again, it can be very difficult for a child who experiences homelessness or is exposed to violence in the home at an early age to reach the same level of cognitive development as a child who only experiences love and safety in a home well-stocked with food and books. </p>

<p>I have no problem conceptually with the idea of providing intellectual stimulation and enrichment appropriate to the child’s level of functioning, but children at all levels need the stimulation & enrichment and should be entitled to it. So the goal, in my mind, really should be individualization and differentiation of the curriculum. Also, I feel that if the resources are available, there really is no particular need to label children as “gifted”, because in my idealized version of a school, then children would be allowed to advance or explore as appropriate to their interests and abilities. </p>

<p>I think it is sad when kids are labeled or categorized at a young age in a way that affects their future access to educational resources, without regard regard to very different developmental patterns as well as the differences in backgrounds. The drawing of bright lines about gifted /not-gifted makes no sense, because it can also result in denial of appropriate educational services to kids who are gifted but not equally advanced in all areas – for example, a kid who may benefit from radical acceleration in math, but at the same time could use extra help in developing literacy skills like reading and writing composition.</p>

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<p>berurah,</p>

<p>My first reaction to learning about Gottfredson’s association to the Pioneer Fund was shock. I did not want my first post to create a storm of controversy so I googled “Pioneer Fund” and this is what I found:</p>

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<p>I do not know the history of eugenics or the history of the US well enough to know where the truth lies, but I do recognize names like Jensen and Rushton. Jensen’s work was infamous decades ago when I was an undergrad, and Rushton is not only from the Great White North but actually from my neck of the woods.</p>

<p>Here is where I think the problem is: On one side you have empirical evidence; on the other side you have polemics. Psychometrics is on the side of Jensen and Gottfredson, popular opinion is on the side of Stephen Jay Gould. Who do we trust? The choice is only ours to make.</p>

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<p>

One of the essential issues here is the issue of WHAT psychometrics <em>really</em> tests–are IQ tests true indicators of that abstract theoretical construct we call “intelligence”–or are they such only because we assign them that power? Do the tests reflect SES bias? Cultural bias? </p>

<p>And then…how can these results be legitimately utilized? To create a sort of educational “caste system” in which all who fall into one category are automatically viewed as homogeneous? To predict future success? Career potential?</p>

<p>These questions are MUCH more crucial than “Who is right?”</p>

<p>~berurah</p>

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<p>Good points, berurah.</p>

<p>This points out what educators should be doing with test results–using them to target kids who need help in various areas, not to deny them help because they are “destined” to be plumbers. </p>

<p>lol–I just paid a plumbing bill and I swear I’m going to insist one of mine goes into plumbing…</p>

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You and me BOTH!!! ;)</p>