<p>While on the whole these experts seem to be reasonable, one comment by the admissions dean at Michigan State strikes me as strange and illogical: “Our question is worded “have you ever…” which means that we do expect a yes response even for “expunged” suspensions…”</p>
<p>“Expunge” means that one’s record doesn’t show the infraction. It doesn’t mean that the infraction never happened. That’s why colleges have every right to expect that students who did things that were expunged would report those things.</p>
<p>But a suspension or disciplinary action could have been a mistake, an administrative error. There are many reasons why something can be expunged. I repeat that expunge doesn’t mean anything if it doesn’t mean correcting the record permanently.</p>
<p>I agree with you. I have seen too many instances of a student’s having been disciplined in error and then the issue corrected. Those instances should not have to be disclosed, IMHO. ~berurah</p>
<p>Speaking as a parent of a kid who will have a few significant things to disclose, I would NOT disclose anything that has been expunged. That is one person’s opinion (Mich State dean) and I think it is wrong.</p>
<p>Our H.S. tracks disciplinary action for the academic year, for minor infractions, that typically ended in an after-school detention. At the end of the year, the slate is wiped clean. A student would have to exceed a certain # of these actions, before it goes on their academic record… Behaviors that resulted in suspension from school are NOT expunged. And I believe that the GC would bring this to the prospective college’s attention at that time.
Saturday Detentions are very arbitrarily handed out, for lunchroom behavior, and some pretty laughable stuff, and then on the other hand, it seems like certain students get away with theft, cheating etc.</p>
<p>I am sure you all know that a parent can ask to review their student’s file, and see exactly what is in there, before you filling out these disclosures.
I feel for the student who was involved in silly pranks in 9th and 10th grades, and then was the model student for the next 2 years, from maturation and academic immersion, and then reported these expunged incidents.</p>
<p>The colleges are not concerned with minor incidents. The concern is with drugs, weapons or academic dishonesty. Also, a clean record during the last two years of high school pretty much wipes out all but the most terrible offenses from freshman and sophomore year. This is what we have repeatedly been told. One of the problems with going to boarding school is that you are under the microscope 24/7 and it is easy to get on the wrong side of some rules. S is going to have to do a real good sell on everything he learned from his checkered past.</p>
<p>A related, and perhaps technical issue, is what does the GC say on the “school report” that it submits with transcript?</p>
<p>If a student’s past disciplinary actions have been enpunged, then the school or GC’s report will not include any such disciplinary actions. They are literally “not in the record.”</p>
<p>Why should a student be expected to report something that for good reason even the GC won’t report?</p>
<p>In these days of Zero Tolerance, it’s hard to tell what’s a prank and what’s a crime. We had four students who set off smoke bombs in the HS. Now granted, it was more than a normal little smoke bomb (the explosion blew out a bathroom stall and could have injured people if the bathroom had been occupied). But within an hour (I am not kidding on this), the school had the local police, the county sheriff, the local fire department, the FBI, the ATF, and security people from the USAFA. Helicopters flew overhead as the evacuated students were gathered in the football stadium. Every one of the students’ cars was searched with dogs and the guilty students were charged with felonies and expelled from school. Caution or overreaction??</p>
<p>Mackinaw, this is why it is a good idea to request a look at your child’s file, if there are any doubts about whether something is still in the record or not.</p>
<p>I don’t think a college would ding a kid who said, </p>
<p>“In 9th grade I TP’d a rival school before homecoming and was caught. I learned my lesson, and because of my thereafter clean record, the incident was expunged.”</p>
<p>If the question asks if you have ever been charged, suspended, expelled, etc." then I think you have a duty to report it. If it was in error, then the discussion should explain that. It would be a VERY difficult conversation if you don’t report something and it comes to light through some other means. </p>
<p>As a comparison, I know that when you apply to take the Bar Examination, similar questions are asked. And it is VERY CLEAR that the Board of Bar Examiners expects full disclosure – you would be surprised at how many times information comes to light that has supposedly been wiped off the face of the earth. </p>
<p>BTW, although off-topic (sorry) the same thing happens if you try to adopt a child internationally – when the Social Worker asks you if you’ve ever been charged with a crime – no matter what the result – you really need to provide a full answer, or you could be disappointed when the results of the FBI fingerprint check comes back. Not that this was a problem for DW and me (honest!) but we heard too many horror stories when we went through this process. </p>
<p>Does expunged mean something is off your permanent record? Theoretically yes, but in reality who knows? I always try to err on the side of disclosure. Just my two cents.</p>
<p>In my opinion, ridiculous over-reaction. Not the kind of world I want to live in, and I don’t see how this possibly helps in dealing with real terrorism.</p>
<p>We came clean. Each time. Not a whole lot of choice in the matter as their schools did not take the 3 monkeys’ approach that many highschools do these days. Ergo the “rap sheet” that was another attachement to the app. Probably had the most interesting essays in it. </p>
<p>Many highschools make it clear to the kids that they do not answer that particular question leaving this issue up to the kids. Most of the time, they lie. Unfortunately, most kids do not have very good explanations for some of their problems, and it is often not a one time thing. It is one thing to explain a lapse of judgement in freeshman or sophomore year, and say how much you learned from it. A whole other story when you repeat the same stupid sort of thing and get caught second term junior year. Pretty hard to get around that. So most kids just lie. And the schools look the other way.</p>
<p>As an aside, my son applied to the University of Michigan which is a school that does not ask that question. But what does he pick as his essay? One of his “mea culpe” ones because they best fit one of the questions. I don’t think it hurt him in his colleges, but who knows? S1 also had a rap sheet and he got into most of his schools and nothing was ever made of it. So I am inclined to believe the CC crew, though I can tell you, it did not make me feel good including that particular attachment to the apps.</p>
<p>My son’s infractions occurred at a different school in a different state than the one he now attends. There is nothing in his current record at all. However, the sheer number of schools on his transcript screams “problem” and calls for an explanation. Also, his advisor is well aware of the checkered past, and is in awe of how my son has come back from some real difficulties and landed on his feet. I would hate for my son to ignore the past problems and then have the counselor write a beautiful rec talking about the past!! He got some practice with this when he applied to boarding school. I keep thinking that a few boarding schools were willing to take him, so the colleges should be, too. Just this week I wrote to his college counselor and explained the circumstances behind all the changes of schools. I wanted to share part of his response with all of you, since I was so moved and impressed by it. I guess this is why we pay the tuition that we pay.</p>
<p>“The best approach to presenting the student is to be as honest and straightforward as possible. I have found that most admission folk are eager to understand and will be pleased to learn that he’s come so far! I look forward to working with you and (my kid) and (his advisor) to craft the letter of support that will most clearly–and most fairly–present this most interesting young man. This might sound a bit crazy, but the most intellectually exciting part of my job–in fact the only intellectually exciting part of my job–is the writing of the letter of support. I feel like an artist who has just been commissioned to paint that portrait, to get it just right, if you will. When I finish writing, I feel I’ve got it right when I can say, “Yep, that’s (the kid)!” I always wanted to be a painter; I guess I’ll have to be happy “crafting” my letters of recommendation.”</p>
<p>You know, I was always sort of wondering just how “Wild” the child was. Sounds like you’ve had a handful. I think your S sound great, and I’m sure he’ll do just fine during this process and will find an outstanding fit. A record of problems may not be what a college likes to see, but a record of overcoming those problems is something they VERY MUCH want to see. Good luck.</p>
<p>I’m surprised there are still schools that have rap sheets. Our high school is so afraid of lawsuits, and so up to its eyeballs in wink wink, nod nod cronyism that we have the following:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>A child who has cheated, openly, numerous times in several AP classes. He/she is still near the top of the class and has only served one day of ISS.</p></li>
<li><p>Children that got a teacher to buy them alcohol. The teacher lost their job, the kids went unpunished. </p></li>
<li><p>A ball player that did not sit out one game, when two other ball players on a different team sat out several–for the same offense that appeared in the newspaper blotter. Of course yet another two other ball players managed not to be charged with a greater offense, played all season and have no record.</p></li>
<li><p>A child that retained her crown of Miss **** , never had anything noted on her school record as her infraction was deemed “medical”, ended up being accepted at and receiving a scholarship at a prestigious school. Her “medical” infraction included not only usage but also selling. (can’t get into what was sold as that would be too readily identifiable. It would make your hair curl.)</p></li>
</ol>
<p>In many of these cases the school decided not to contact law enforcement using excuses like “we can’t tell where the product was consumed” etc… There is now a “committee” of unnamed folks (people have inquired just who they are) that make the discipline decisions. You can see why the kids are a bit skeptical about who will get a fair deal.</p>
<p>My husband sat on a community drug task force to look into the problem at the school. He’s decided they have a perfectly fine drug and alcohol policy, they just don’t choose to enforce it even handedly. </p>
<p>I think they must not have any policy at all for cheating.</p>
<p>At any rate, they will all be squeaky clean come application time. I am glad that the families who have posted here about past problems have encouraged their children to have some ownership in the issue, and I hope their honesty is rewarded. I’m pretty sick of the dishonest kids stomping on the others on their way up.</p>
<p>Fortunately, Wild Child’s offenses did not involve the “Red Flag” offenses. He is an example of what happens when you have a lack of consequences and supervision (H and I take some blame, but also the school) and a REALLY smart kid who can see every loophole! The stories will become legends. This is a kid who was expelled from preschool!!</p>
but we heard too many horror stories when we went through this process. </p>
I am glad that the families who have posted here about past problems have encouraged their children to have some ownership in the issue, and I hope their honesty is rewarded. I’m pretty sick of the dishonest kids stomping on the others on their way up.</p>