<p>And if you agree with her, it would be constructive to hear what we need to do to get our system to be as well as those of Japan and Finland.</p>
<p>Don’t both of those countries have pretty restrictive immigration/ resident policies?
I don’t think that would work with the US.</p>
<p>^^^ And some of our best students are immigrants.</p>
<p>Since it is not just blanket restrictions against immigrants that would work – what kind of restrictions are the ones that would help, and why is the trade-off such that we would not consider them? (I assume that’s what you meant by “would not work in the US”).</p>
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<p>Could you please give examples of unassailable “truths”?</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/princeton-university/976100-how-liberal-princeton.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/princeton-university/976100-how-liberal-princeton.html</a></p>
<p>I believe I gave my personal answer to this question at the beginning of the thread: get kids to care. There are many ways to this.</p>
<p>I frequently tell a class that if they stump me on the meaning of a word they’ve found in assigned readingthey can have two class periods off. College teachers can do this. The catch is that they have to know what the word means. I’ve yet to give a class off, but many of them do look up the words.</p>
<p>I’m always suspicious of student reports about instructors ‘controlling the thought’ of the classroom.</p>
<p>When I teach first year students, I frequently get complaints on my course evaluations about how I want ‘force’ them to think in a certain way, and won’t let them express their viewpoint.</p>
<p>This comes, in part, because when I evaluate their writing, I make many comments about their thinking, especially where it is weak, and how they need to develop their ideas more or consider more points to strengthen their argument, or to see it from another perspective to see if their thinking is still the same. </p>
<p>It doesn’t matter if the position they take is considered ‘liberal’ or ‘conservative’, they are young, inexperienced, a bit immature and although they think they’ve thought through the issue fully, they typically haven’t. And I point that out. And they get very, very frustrated, especially when they ask me to read over a draft and are surprised by the number of comments I make.</p>
<p>Most first year students aren’t used to this, especially the brighter students. They aren’t used to being challenged in this way. Since they did so well in high school, even in their ‘honors’ or ‘AP’ classes, they think that the problem is with me, and that I won’t let them think for themselves.</p>
<p>For many first year students, their thinking is superficial, and I’m trying to point out how they can think through their position more deeply. Unfortunately, any challenges/questions to points in their argument must be because I’m biased, and not because they need to work and think harder.</p>
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<p>Bay, please do. 
That would be fascinating. Is this a full professor? associate? assistant? adjunct? visiting? Wow, I’m intrigued.</p>
<p>You are going to have to wait,alh. I know you have connections to Yale, which to my knowledge you have not disclosed the details of. :)</p>
<p>Good post, skrlvr. Some kids find critiques to be condemning and/or repressive. Instead, it’s often about the process.
DH has a class designed to get kids to recognize and dig into differing perspectives about a period in history, then examine. Some kids are used to stating an opinion, then defending it. Not the point of the class. Those who get his purpose, are able to “compare and contrast.” They are free to hold to their own beliefs, but asked to apply reading, research and analytical skills. Simply stating what you think is right or best…isn’t the point.</p>
<p>The education problem starts with the fact that we are a huge country, with a huge population to satisfy. Not just ethnic dversity, but social, religious, political and other factors. The issues with the needy are not easily resolved. No one size fits all. </p>
<p>You can’t always extrapolate- that what worked in one area, one school district or one charter, will necessarily work for all of the country. And, certainly not that what works in a small country will work here. Finland has under 6 million people, roughly a million 0-14 years old. NYC alone has more than a million kids in the public system. US over 300 million, nearly 63 million 0-14.</p>
<p>To Bay: we teach our students to read the text both as written and to ferret out the subliminal, subconscious intents of writers.</p>
<p>I would have let this go, but you questioned my credentials. My doctoral dissection was awarded best in the country in any discipline by University Micofiche the year it was published. I have won many writing awards and spoken at many conferences, some at Ivies.</p>
<p>I have received positive reviews from Pulitzer Prize winners and world famous critics and philosophers such as Jan Kott and Jasques Derrida.</p>
<p>I wouldn’t have written all this, but you directly questioned my credentials.</p>
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<p>And you misspell “dissertation” ? Okay. Some wonderful literary theorists probably can’t spell. I’m a bit dyslexic myself. </p>
<p>Regarding my kid’s freshman seminar at Princeton – she’s not fully conservative or liberal in her thinking, much like her parents. She’s carrying an A- which is apparently the highest grade in the class. She showed us the reading list and it was ridiculously one-sided in it’s political slant. There were no readings that introduced any conservative or even neutral ideas about the topic. And outside sources are not allowed in the writing assignments. The professor is somewhat young, pushing for tenure. </p>
<p>My DD says it’s like going to class in a straitjacket. Yay!! I guess her mind is being expanded. :)</p>
<p>She is learning to be cynical about her own education, says she will probably not concentrate in history but instead physics or computer science. Actually, her computer science professor seems to be far more provocative and interesting on social science than her history seminar professor.</p>
<p>mythmom,
I think you are an outstanding writer; I am not surprised that you have impressive credentials. (What is University Micofiche? I’ve not heard of it, and googled it but found nothing). I think what you wrote about Texas was a good example of a reader looking for and rationalizing what he wants to find about a certain source (i.e., Texas Republicans are stupid, so they <em>must</em> be taking a stupid stand on things). In this case, you were proved wrong.</p>
<p>I still don’t really get what is objectionable about Outcomes Based Education.</p>
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<p>I never had this problem despite going out of my way to be argumentative and contrarian with my college Profs…especially in the fields of history and poli-sci. </p>
<p>Considering how the political culture of my LAC(Oberlin) during the mid-late '90s was genuinely radical left(real Marxists/Maoists felt home here), you’d think I’d have flunked out considering I lived to be the anti-commie/hippie skeptic gadfly in their sides. </p>
<p>Oddly enough, instead of flunking or getting Cs…I actually excelled academically despite having diametrically opposing viewpoints. Heck, many had great respect for my willingness to openly disagree/debate them in class and office hours. Several offered to write grad school/employment recs on my behalf and have actually done so. </p>
<p>Then again, I have noticed that unlike classmates from my urban public magnet or Oberlin, undergrads at many other universities tended to be far more passive and much more easily intimidated by Profs or more bold/extroverted students like myself. </p>
<p>A surprising number also seem to have the weird notion that others should accept their perspective/argument and agree automatically without any questioning or demands on their part for evidence to support it…and felt any efforts to call them on it was “oppressive”. </p>
<p>Granted, I was the type of student teachers/Profs either loved for being openly passionate and engaged with the topic or hated for openly disagreeing/debating in class and “undermining their authoritah”*. Oddly enough, all my Profs at Oberlin or two Ivies where I took courses loved me for this very tendency. </p>
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<li>In contrast, I was given negative conduct comments on grade reports and even sent to the dean several times for similar behavior in HS. :)</li>
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<p>I hope one bad prof doesn’t taint the whole college experience, turn a student cynical about all profs. Sure, there are lousy profs out there. Calling the whole bushel rotten- well, not yet, I hope. Not until enough data/experience has been culled.</p>
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<p>Did you look at Wikipedia? Half of the entry is devoted to criticisms of OBE. </p>
<p>I am not an educator, so I cannot speak to your statement. But I can google, and there appears to be a significant amount of written information addressing the controversies surrounding OBE.</p>
<p>Thinking About Critical Thinking</p>
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<p>How do you know this? From an internet post from an anonymous poster? How do you know I’m not embellishing and exaggerating for effect? How do you know alh is a real person and not a composite? How do you know I’m not the creation of a 30 yr old hipster sitting at a table in Starbucks experimenting with the idea of creating a novel composed by cutting and pasting from internet message boards?</p>
<p>Or a 13 yr old who found this screen name and ID on a library computer?</p>
<p>How does anyone else on this board know that Bay and alh aren’t different screen names of the same person?</p>
<p>You are a woman. You are a mother. You have a daughter. The daughter goes to Yale. One of her professors instructed her how to vote for in a personal email.</p>
<p>All of the above statements may be true. Some of the above statements may be true. None of the above statements may be true. We really have no way to know. ;)</p>
<p>^Good points!</p>
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<p>I know how to google and did so this afternoon. I looked at the wiki and several documents from the first 3 pages of results as well.</p>
<p>I just couldn’t see anything a political party might object to and didn’t at all see how critical thinking had anything to do with it.</p>
<p>Edited to add: and the undermining parental authority thing makes no sense to me regarding OBE either.</p>
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<p>Is “international tests” the basis for judging an education system? We’ve been arguing here on CC that SAT/ACT etc has a minor role in evaluating a student. We need to have a holistic evaluation of our K-12.</p>