One of the worst K-12 education systems in the world

alh · November 19, 2012, 1:56pm

I wondered about this, too. Especially in the context that citing other outside works wasn’t allowed. It is possible to teach one perspective without being in agreement with that perspective. The point is for others to learn about that perspective. They don’t have to agree with it, either. You do have to acknowledge such a perspective exists.

It is also possible to get a really really poor teacher. They do exist. And at most schools, it is possible to change to a different class.

I know this all depends of your pov but the idea of Princeton as a bastion of liberal close mindedness has me smiling. :)

lookingforward · November 19, 2012, 2:00pm

My young friend at NYU is a model of tolerance and open-mindedness. A remarkable yw who happens to be grounded in her Christian faith. (And, btw, a TX valedictorian.) Imagine her surprise when her freshman Modern Lit and writing class focused exclusively on the darkest side of life, the despairs and descent into utter loss (her prof’s personal perspective.) She made a fierce decision to meet the needs of the class through her own lens- that faith, hope, optimism have a place. She let her family know her grade would probably suffer. Of course, lots of arguments with this prof (who saw her as naive, but never diminished her faith itself,) but accomplished what the class was meant to convey- an understanding of that sort of lit in the particular timeframe. Her grade was not for parroting, but for the achievements. A.

I think we get distracted by the question of whether profs/colleges are too liberal, and thus, somehow, repressive. It’s not high school. Imo, it’s a period in which, among other things, one should be exposed to others’ views, others’ rationales, etc…and begin to solidify one’s own system of beliefs (whether they remain as they were in hs or evolve.) And then understand not just the values list, but how and why it makes sense to them, fits within their personal philosophy. Heady? Maybe. To me, that’s a big part of the value of “higher education.” Then again, I’m a proponent of critical thinking.

ps. critical thinking isn’t about criticizing or taking a negative stand. Not criticizing, per se. It’s about questioning. Entirely possible to question and land right back where you started, with the same beliefs and principles, just a broader examination of what they rest on, imply and mean.

mythmom · November 19, 2012, 2:04pm

Not recent. This reevaluation of TG, and of Columbus’ voyages in general, has been going on for 30 years. Or maybe thirty years is recent. Then yes, absolutely. I was offering the menu as a bit of levity.

It is important to look at how Columbus and subsequent colonization affected the lives of indigenous peoples. (It’s back to Indians I’m told. Native American is out. Or so I’m told. I’m not an historian.)

I think we can still enjoy TG as a manufactured history that has become tradition while reserved a corner of our minds for the sufferings of indigenous peoples. Both can coexist. There are many simultaneous narratives.

In New York Columbus day is mostly about Italian food and festivals and a shopping day. It’s fun. Does that fun totally efface the sufferings of pre-Columbian Americans in North, Central and South America? I hope not, but I also understand folks who just want to have a sausage and pepper hero in peace getting feisty, too.

We can balance all these narratives and have a symphony of history, not just a lone hegemonic melody.

I teach Early American Literature on occasion, and we read Mary Rowlandson’s account of her captivity during Prince Philip’s War in MA. It’s hard wrenching, and her account of the tribal peoples who held her captive are damning. We do need to study the POV of the Indians. However, I think it’s also okay to validate the sufferings of Mary Rowlandson. (These captivity narratives were an important literary genre at the time.)

Human beings do horrible and wonderful things and often do horrible things to “the other.” I don’t think any groups are exempt, and we don’t just want a history of victimization, as I think some less PC folks might feel. However, we don’t just want a narrative of victory either, particularly one that ignores the suffering left in the wake of these victories.

I also teach mythology on occasion, particularly the great epics. And one great thing Homer did in the Iliad was to elevate the heroic qualities of Hector at the expense of his countryman, Achilles. The Trojans are fully human. There is no black/white in the Iliad. And even Achilles grows past his great godlike wrath.

If we don’t paint with too broad a brush, conservatives or progressives, we should be able to listen to and support narratives that chronicle human experience together. To me that is the role of the humanities, to take us past our “received” views, and professors should remain continually open to this process too.

However, without the basic skill set provided by K - 12 education, we cannot be discerning readings of these narratives, nor can we truly understand science without successfully completing some time in a lab. Of course, we all understand the importance of some math competency.

The challenge is to find ways to give students some agency and experience a stake in their own educations so that their teachers are not adversaries but guides.

OHMomof2 · November 19, 2012, 2:07pm

Thanks for the Schlafly suggestion, I found her essay on it.

It is still really light on specific examples, more says things like: When they talk about “higher order thinking skills” or “critical thinking,” they mean a relativistic process of questioning traditional moral values. - without saying WHICH moral values are questioned and how.

I do get the concern that standardized testing my be aimed at the lowest common denominator. Apparently standardized testing is considered a key component of OBE…though she also complains that OBE is bad because outcomes can’t be measured by standardized tests.

Later she does call out tolerance as being part of OBE, and I get how that threatens some families’ moral values when it is extended to gay people: *Since “tolerance” is a major attitudinal outcome demanded by OBE, parents are concerned that this includes “tolerance” for extra-marital lifestyles of all kinds. The non-directive, “decision-making” classroom technique leads children to believe they are mature enough to make decisions about sex and drugs that parents believe are unhealthy and may even be illegal. *

I get the privacy concerns she raises.

Anyhow, I don’t get it still but I’ve spent too much time trying to understand it, and the objections to it already and since I am neither an educator nor the parent of young children, I’ll just let it go.

cobrat · November 19, 2012, 2:16pm

I’ve noticed this mindset of conceding among many undergrads and some Profs., especially women when they have someone who argues something fiercely…especially in a belligerent manner.

While this is seen as good for keeping peace within families*, speaking as a male and someone who has observed many such fierce/belligerent students in classroom settings…it may not be the best idea for the Prof./instructor to concede…especially if female for the following reasons:

<ol>
<li>Most such students…especially males speaking as one myself would interpret the conceding as a victory and “proof” the fierce/belligerently made in-class argument advanced was correct…even if it was little more than a stinking pile of BS. Consequently, an opportunity to correct/focus the student to carefully consider differing viewpoints may be missed. </li>
</ol>

It’s also a reason why political movements throughout history…especially recently are able to gain overwhelming momentum even if many/most reasonable people rightly see them as polemic demagogues.

<ol>
<li>It allows the fierce/belligerent students to unduly dominate classroom discussion and intimidate less extroverted/bold students from participating in class discussion for fears of being put down by the former types of students. In one Ivy class I sat in on, one former type student was such that she and 3 other students in a class of 21 were the only ones speaking for the entire two hours. </li>
</ol>

Worse yet, two of the intimidated undergrads came up to me after class and asked me to intercede on their behalf to ask the TA friend to facilitate a less belligerent dominating environment so the other members of the class could participate. I was shocked my friend didn’t pick up on that when it was clear from just one class how the dominating student was sucking the air/intimidating the rest of the undergrads.

<ul>
<li>I disagree with this mentality though it’s commonplace with every family I’ve seen to varying degrees.</li>
</ul>

alh · November 19, 2012, 2:24pm

I have a friend who teaches the bible at one of these bastions of liberal closemindedness. The course examines the bible as a historical and literary document. She teaches how the bible we have today came into existence and this is a real challenge to literalists. There are usually at least a few very distressed students. They are so upset their professor is telling them the bible isn’t true in the sense they have always been led to believe.

I was shocked once at a dinner party to hear someone, who should have known better, refer to my friend as an atheist. This person assumed someone with an academic knowledge of biblical studies couldn’t be a believer. My friend is extremely devout. That, however, has nothing whatsoever to do with either her research interests or her teaching…

I think. Probably that is just an assumption on my part. In this case it is possible faith probably informs every part of life. However, I’m pretty positive talking about personal religious beliefs in the classroom is inappropriate and has nothing to do with teaching the bible in a secular setting.

mythmom · November 19, 2012, 2:24pm

I don’t now validate the student’s position but conceded the emotional. Had I not, this student would have kept the argument going for the entire class, become increasingly rude, and pushed the confrontation that would have resulted in at least one of us being disciplined by some administrative authority. I chose to avoid this outcome for both our sakes, and I’m glad I did.

I am a pretty outspoken person and a very experienced professor, and I think the rest of my students were very aware of what I was doing and why. I’m not sure if this particular student could have been brought to a more neutral or conciliatory place. You don’t have to take my word for it, but I’ve been there before.

Community college students can be very bright and capable, but many of come come to college with the same aggressive, rebellious and challenging attitudes that impeded their success in high school. It takes a lot to finesse the situation so the environment remains a fairly settled learning environment. YMMV.

mythmom · November 19, 2012, 2:27pm

alh: It looks like an interesting book!

mythmom · November 19, 2012, 2:29pm

To add another wrinkle to the conversation I offer the conviction of a recent class that “ignorance is bliss.” I could not budge them an iota. They claimed they were in college for possible financial rewards and because their parents were forcing them to attend. To a person they argued that the ignorant were happier and left to their own devices, that’s what they each would choose.

The were deaf to any arguments about knowledge bringing agency.

My other five classes (I have a job and half) thought this position faulty and definitely did not agree. I know because I asked them.

alh · November 19, 2012, 2:30pm

<h1>148 ^^it is! I deleted because I was just going off on yet another tangent. That tends to happen when you’re merely a composite character.</h1>

[Books</a> of The Times - Fears of the Puritans, the Appeal of the Indians - NYTimes.com](<a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/1994/04/06/books/books-of-the-times-fears-of-the-puritans-the-appeal-of-the-indians.html]Books”>Books of The Times; Fears of the Puritans, the Appeal of the Indians - The New York Times)

sewhappy · November 19, 2012, 2:30pm

This is kind of an astonishingly crude post, imo. Do you think that every single one of my kid’s classes at her college must align perfectly with my hopes for her education in order for me to approve of her attending? Do you think any parent could or should vet every single class their kid signs up for in college? I just don’t get your logic on this at all. It’s not about Princeton. It’s about our education system in this society at this moment.

FWIW, her brief time at Princeton has been truly fantastic in almost every respect. Ridiculously good advising. Great teaching in all other classes. Lovely roommates, lovely room, for that matter. Plenty of intellectual challenge, which is what she wanted most. I am not by any means out to bash Princeton here. I am trying to give an example of an aspect of higher education in our country that is extremely troubling for many of us.

sewhappy · November 19, 2012, 2:46pm

Xiggi – I admire your post #138. You express it well.

You know what I can’t help thinking is that in general for every era prevailing thought has later been found to be repressive or misguided thought. And so the more oppressively the prevailing academic thought is pushed on the students, the more these “scholars” will be viewed quite critically in times to come. It’s usually the lone voice in the wilderness that is deemed the genius. The incredible lack of diversity on campuses in terms of political orientation of the faculties is kind of amazing.

Oh, and alh, thinking of Princeton as conservative makes you smile? Hmmm. I think you have a very antiquated perspective on the institution.

alh · November 19, 2012, 2:47pm

sewhappy:
Are you going to respond to #128 skrlvr?

Sincere apologies for any crudeness. I didn’t vet any of my kids classes. If they didn’t care for the class, they switched to something else. If it was a required class, they switched sections.

Maybe I am misreading you - once again - but aren’t you citing this class at Princeton as a typical example of what is happening in higher education, as a widespread problem, and extrapolating to an indictment of a whole system?

Is this sort of repressive classroom environment typical at Princeton or not?

sewhappy · November 19, 2012, 3:05pm

Re: #128 skrlvr

I use “fascism” in the non-capitalized Webster sense of the world.

[fascism</a> - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary](<a href=“http://mw4.merriam-webster.com/wdictionary/fascism]fascism”>http://mw4.merriam-webster.com/wdictionary/fascism)

Canuckguy · November 20, 2012, 5:54am

My experience is that political orientation seems to vary with ones major. I find folks in the physical and applied sciences politically conservative while those in the social sciences and humanities liberal. The reason the campus culture appears liberal is because the social sciences and humanities people do most of the talking, as per their training.

There are, of course, outliers.

lake42ks · November 20, 2012, 6:38am

Could that be because they have different way of thinking, one flexible and the other less so?

sorghum · November 20, 2012, 9:03am

The Schlafly critique seems to be about 30 years old, one would hope there is more clarity available now. The Wiki article on outcomes based education seems quite sensible and balanced.

Bay · November 20, 2012, 9:59am

Is it this easy to switch in and out of classes and sections one doesn’t care for at most colleges? This was not my impression from my Ds’ experiences. They had difficulty getting into many of their classes, some by lottery or other means, and frequently there was only one section that met the time constraints of their schedules. They did not have the luxury of switching out of classes on the whim of not caring for them, which I’m pretty sure they would have done in a couple of cases had it been easy to do.

sewhappy · November 20, 2012, 10:43am

Re: switching classes
My older kid never dropped a class. He was sort of dogged about sticking with whatever he’d registered for. I don’t think it’s something my DD would be likely to do either. Sometimes the classes you disagree with and/or don’t enjoy can teach you a lot. Also, it’s not a good idea to come in late to a new class generally.

Sam_Lee · November 20, 2012, 11:26am

Beliavsky,

Thanks for the link. That study pretty much reinforces my view on this topic. As an immigrant who grew up in Hong Kong, I like the system here much better. If anything is worse here, it’s probably the bullying at some of the schools.

One of the worst K-12 education systems in the world

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