Online Academy for Profoundly Gifted vs Great Local HS for Ivies?

Parents Forum
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My Sophomore daughter is trying to decide between staying at an online school for profoundly gifted students, and a very good local public school. It is highly ranked with great academic and extracurricular programs. Top students go to ivies and good liberal arts schools. She is a competitive tennis player. She really likes Columbia, Princeton, Yale, and UPenn in that order.

Her considerations are:

Davidson
Pros:
-stellar quality faculty and education. All classes are discussion based and highly interactive with passionate teachers. Never boring.
-Flexibility. Davidson follows the U of Nevada academic calendar. Academic year begins in late Aug and ends in mid May. A month off for winter break. She takes 5 core classes and has a college student like schedule. 2-3 1.5 hr classes M-Th and 1 or no classes on Friday. This flexibility gives her time for tennis training and take advantage of other activities such as volunteering, extra language course, taking 2 classes at Carmel (the public school allows homeschool students to take up to 2 classes)
-Less social pressure and negative socialization.

Cons:
-Limited extracurricular activities. She is a student ambassador and plans to run for student government at Davidson.
-Sometimes feels isolated and lonely
-I am concerned about her social development.
-less freedom for me

Local Public School

Pros
-Robust variety of extracurricular activities
-opportunities for socialization with the entire spectrum of humanity! 6,000 students! My daughter tends to be shy at first but once feels comfortable, can be very social. She is more of an intellectual

. At the local school, She would take the most rigorous program (4 APs her sophomore year-eng lit, euro history, env science, Calc ab) and the local school have weighted gpa. At the school for profoundly gifted students where there are no APs (their courses are more rigorous than APs) she would take Amer Lit, Calc, Physics, Imperialism, Russian History.

Great local public school vs. esteemed online school for profoundly gifted students. Any thoughts on which high school would give her the best chance at the ivies that she’s aiming for?

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The general advice you are going to get here will not end with a tally for or against one of these options. What does your daughter want from her high school experience?

People often post asking how to manifest an Ivy acceptance for their kid. I won’t get into the fallacy of an “Ivy or bust” mindset. I understand the Ivy brand is powerful and the schools are generally fantastic. But there are many great schools outside of that eight-member, D1 athletic conference that might be a good fit for a student. Also, it’s probably too soon for a HS sophomore to be locking in on a college list. What process has she engaged in to make an informed list?

Anyway, the way to stand out is to flip the framing of the project here. Put the student — not the “dream schools” — at the center of the work.

You see, if the student is in an environment where they can best thrive in their intellectual, social, civic and personal formation, and they achieve success in that, colleges will notice. Colleges want kids who will show up as their best selves. So make sure she is getting an opportunity to become her best self. Happy, accomplished kids are the ones who will generally succeed in their life endeavors, including the college process.

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In person high school, for socialization.

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Getting along with people and being able to form relationships of various kinds is at least as important as academic prowess. She should go to the LPS.

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Is this her personality or a function of the school?

Is there an advantage to her tennis at Davidson?

Based on what you wrote, the public school seems an easy choice.

You’ll have no idea where she’ll get into college regardless of where she attends. And you may decide you don’t want to spend $400k on college even if she gets into a top tier one. Or maybe tennis takes her in a different academic direction.

Going to this name vs that name college is unimportant, especially if you are seeing social struggles and believe it’s in part from the current environment.

And the entire focus on one athletic conference is too much pressure and frankly, no matter how well she does in school, it’s still statistically unlikely she gets there. They make the decision, not her. All she can do is be the best person that she can be. The rest is not her call. Your call is - unless you have need - are you willing to spend $400k on an undergraduate degree ? You needn’t answer now but it’s something to think about.

Going to Columbia doesn’t ensure success - just like going to Chico State doesn’t mean failure.

Slow down the college talk train. Let her be a kid.

Good luck.

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This would not be my main concern. My main concern would be the quality of her remaining high school experience. A lot depends on her and her preferences. A traditional high school - even a high quality one - can be a very difficult environment for a profoundly gifted student which can actually increase her sense of isolation. The classes - even advanced ones - can be difficult for them to engage with. One thing people get wrong about profoundly gifted students is that it’s not just that they’re smart, but they often think differently and therefore need to be taught differently. A mainstream classroom can, therefore, be hard both intellectually and socially.

However, some gifted students are more flexible and can handle mainstream schools. This is very much personality dependent. So this is really something you and your daughter need to discuss. Socializing can be challenging. The learning environment can be less engaging. If she faces both social and academic challenges as result, is she prepared to deal with them, does she have strategies to deal with them, and is it worth it?

Put college out of your mind for now (I get that that’s hard). But the quality of her high school years is just as - or even more - important in themselves.

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Things I would consider if it was my child:

Will you daughter be able to build community with this online program? Is this online program really that strong and what is their college placement track record - taking out athletic recruits? How long has it been in existence - is it for profit or nonprofit. Is this really a better fit academically vs the public school. It is common for gifted/talented programs to end by HS, as kids will be able to find challenge and their peers within their local HS, so your daughter will not be the only student needing/wanting advanced academics. You also mention that it would be nicer for you to have her attend the public school - I think that counts for something too. I don’t see a language on her schedule - presume you just didn’t list.

Are you sure she will be a tennis recruit and does she understand the commitment to play in college? I am familiar with other sports and not tennis (My daughter is an Ivy athlete - different sport) - so unsure if this is to early to think she is a strong enough player, injury free etc to have D1 tennis in the mix. I imagine the rankings and feedback are telling her that she is ?

Agree with others that she needs take specific colleges out of the mix - it is way too early. The schools listed are all very different - except for 1 thing - Ivy conference. My daughter’s dream college when she was a freshman in HS (and she has all the gear to prove it!) was one that she ranked last when she did visits jr year - kids change, team change, coaches change, academic interests change and so on and so on. Our only advice was to take full advantage of what the high school offers and that would most likely provide you more options for college.

Besides my daughter’s sport, I also think it helped to see that she was very involved at her school (her sport was outside of school) and made the most of her high school education and community outside of her sport. She jokes that her team is filled with former class presidents and the like :wink:

Lastly, what about affordability. The Ivy’s do not provide athletic or merit money - are you full pay or will you qualify for enough FA to make these schools (and others) a reality?

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I sent you a DM. To access it, look for your avatar in the upper right corner of your screen and then click on the little envelope. If you have trouble, let me know.

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First, I agree it’s too early to discuss college and that high school should not be tainted by concern for admissions to top schools. But I’ll address another thing to think about based on what you have expressed as goals and concerns, trying to meet you where you are.

Getting into top schools may have nothing to do with academics, beyond a benchmark. My kids went to a mediocre school that left them time to read, think, dance, make music, see friends, volunteer with local tv and theater, take art class, many other things- and got into great schools. So your choice based on academic quality may be misguided even with a goal of an Ivy school.

I know a family who went to great lengths to get a kid into an Ivy with tennis, another with squash. Life was frenetic with school and lots of travel. Tennis certainly can get people into schools but personally i would not give up a normal high school experience for that, unless it is a true passion (like music and dance for some…).

My vote is for the public school and if boredom is an issue, interesting activities outside of school.

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There are MANY students at all top colleges who are not profoundly gifted. I’d say that the majority are not. Everyone at those schools is “top” in some way. Academics are almost secondary. It’s the non-academic factors that make a difference. Profoundly gifted students may really struggle to find their place a college such as Harvard, for example.

Strong academics are a basic expectation at top colleges, barring a hook or compelling circumstances. Unless your child is motivated to do ECs of their own volition and has made an effort to be engaged in something apart from academics, it can be hard for online students to have the kind of impact that makes them stand out.

Why does your child want to attend an Ivy? What’s most important to your child? Because really, the child needs to be the driver of this process. If your child is seeking a very intellectual environment, Harvard is probably not the right place for her.

I’d also advise against being overly concerned with “profound intellectualism” in regards to top colleges. There are under the radar colleges where profoundly gifted students can find their peers. Reed, St. Johns, Swarthmore, Pomona, CalTech, Harvey Mudd, and Oberlin come to mind. U Chicago and MIT. UC Berkeley. Carnegie Mellon, Wesleyan, Bard. The honors college at your state U. Even Minerva for something different.

Obviously most of those are not under the radar. I’m just saying that HYP are not necessarily the most intellectual schools. All will have a lot of intelligent students though.

The socialization that comes from a traditional high school environment is hard to replicate with online school. I can’t imagine expecting my 18 year old going from learning at home for three years to abruptly living amongst a bunch of hormonal teens who have suddenly found freedom away from home. Yes, kids at all top colleges party and do other things their parents would prefer not to know about. It’s to your child’s benefit to be ready for that.

I think you are overly concerned about your child being labelled as “ordinary” if she attends a normal high school with regular students. Teachers know true giftedness when they see it. The recommendations she may get from her teachers at a regular high school are incredibly important at top universities and colleges. It is perhaps a misstep not to recognize their value. It’s much harder to get compelling and credible recommendations from an online school that convey the kind of information that colleges look for. If you look at colleges’ Common Data Sets, you will see that many of them consider teacher recommendations to be Very Important.

If her ultimate goal is an Ivy, she should strongly consider mainstream high school.

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Agreed. I attended a gifted school from 4th to 12th grade. Not everyone there was profoundly gifted, but some certainly were. All students were gifted to some degree, however, and the range of colleges attended by my classmates was broad. Of course a good number of students attended an Ivy (also Stanford and MIT), but just as many attended the state flagship. Quite a few chose a LAC. I went Jesuit myself. Gifted students end up at all kinds of colleges.

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I’d echo @Metawampe 's thoughts – you need your D to be in the place where she can develop into the best version of herself.

You are smart to be considering the consequences of your actions – it’s awful to find that inadvertently, you eliminated an option you wanted. Neither of these – on it’s own – will keep your D from a top school.

High school is not an extended admissions test for college! These are really important years developmentally and socially. If your D loves tennis and it makes sense for her to structure her life around that, online school may be your only option. In person schools, and especially public ones, have policies around attendance that are often unworkable for elite athletes and performers who need a lot of flexibility to train, rehearse, travel, perform, etc. If this is you, you have your answer.

Otoh, if life sort of evolved to this option and it’s increasing feeling wrong, which happens to everyone at some point, it’s time for a change. Maybe tennis doesn’t need to be so much of a focus. Maybe your D would like in person socialization at school. Maybe she’d like being around kids who aren’t all gifted.

And remember, you can build around any choice to make it better meet your needs. No option will be optimal for everything, but you can optimize to get the priorities right.

Lastly, good for you in observing that your current path may not be serving your child well and working on a solution that will make her happier. As the person in charge of course planning at my child’s BS said, "Don’t choose classes to please a college that may not admit you anyway. Choose classes that allow you to be happy and engaged with what matters to you now. This way, you’re guaranteed that your choice will please someone. " Getting it right now will give you the best outcome now and in the future.

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To me this is most concerning. So many people today can’t interact at school or in the workplace.

We hired a fine young person. Does a solid job. But has zero people skills. Literally. Abd this will hold him back.

Some just don’t have them or need to find their way. But if they aren’t given the chance up front - what will happen when they step on a campus of thousands?

I others may get into good schools from the online academy but how do they do (socially) once there ?

Obviously some are willing to go to school online. Personally I would never even consider it. It’s not real world applicable - to college or life.

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Don’t sacrifice a high school experience for a sport, including tennis. Your child can do both. High-level high-school athletes do it all of the time.

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Love this. I’m going to borrow it!

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A truly profoundly gifted student may be bored and find it hard to find a social group in the typical public school (which is why programs like Davidson exist).

I guess what is throwing me is the timing of this post. I’m reading this as a rising sophomore deciding on a school that would be starting in a few days.

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I think they are already matriculating at Davidson and deciding whether to stay or to withdraw and go be their public school.

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Three things come to mind right away.

First of all, I never attended an Ivy League university. I did attend some highly ranked universities (MIT and Stanford) and my wife does have two graduate degrees from an Ivy League university. My impression based on the many students that I met at highly ranked universities is that students come from a very, very wide range of high schools, and that admissions is very good at understanding the difference between different high schools and adjusting accordingly in admissions. They are looking for academically strong students who are a good fit, not students who come from a good high school. As such, I do not think that the difference between one high school versus another high school is likely to make any significant difference with regard to a student’s chances of getting accepted to an Ivy League or similarly highly ranked university. This might be particularly true when choosing between two very good high schools.

My second thought is that interaction with other students is quite important. This would seem to be a vote for an in-person school rather than an online school.

My third thought is that when a student graduates from high school, they should be looking for a college or university that is a good fit for them. The eight Ivy League schools are all very good, and are all a good fit for some strong students. However, there are just as many highly ranked schools that are not in the Ivy League. There are many LACs that are excellent and being smaller are more likely to allow students to get to know their professors. I think that the best LACs are in general just as strong for a bachelor’s degree as any university in the US. Also, there are hundreds of universities and colleges where a student can get a great education. Graduates from MIT and Harvard and Stanford and Princeton routinely work alongside graduates from many of perhaps 200 other schools and in most cases no one cares where anyone got their degrees. If you look at the top ranked graduate programs you will again find students who graduated from a very wide range of universities. I do not think that the highest ranked universities are a good fit for nearly as many students as there are who think that they want to attend a highly ranked university. Also my family has quite a bit of experience with attending a lower ranked university that is a great fit for them, and then going on to a very good and highly ranked graduate program that is also a good fit for them. In most cases graduate admissions seems to care a lot about what you did as an undergraduate student and in employment after getting a bachelor’s, and will care a lot less about where you got your bachelor’s degree. As such I would encourage any student to look for a good fit in a college or university, and specifically not to just focus on Ivy League schools.

And again, “good fit” may be the most important consideration when trying to decide between two very good options for a high school. I think that finding a “good fit” in a high school will maximize a student’s chances of attending a college or university that is also a good fit, whether that be in the Ivy League or elsewhere.

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As you rightly point out, you are concerned about her social development and she sometimes feels isolated and lonely. I think now is a very important age to address those issues. If you decide to stay with the online school, I’d be looking for more ways for her to spend time with other (new) people so that she develops those more of those socializing skills. In adult life, those soft skills are super important, maybe more so than her academic knowledge and mastery.

The benefit of such a large local public school will be the extracurriculars and clubs, and that will be a good way for her to meet other students who share common interests. And learn how to work on projects together in-person with other kids. It’s often not easy, and that’s also an important skill to learn. The transition from online school to in-person school will have hiccups, so be prepared to stay calm and give support as appropriate.

As many others here have said, fit is the most important part of the college decision for your kid. I recommend you don’t approach college applications with an Ivies-or-bust attitude, and don’t decide right now what the “dream school” is. Allow your child to explore interests and develop her own passions; empower her to chart her own path. Because ultimately, the goal is to have a kid who is happy with their life, and that can be accomplished outside of the Ivies. Your goal instead is to develop a list of colleges (by end of junior year) that she would be happy to attend. Those schools need to fit your financial means, and range from safety schools (basically no chance of rejection) to the reach schools (any of the Ivies + many others).

Good luck with your decision.

ETA: I do empathize with your concern for academic challenge, I also worried about that for my kid. Even though high school was pretty easy despite the most rigorous course load possible, there was enough challenge & fun in the other parts of the high school experience that it ended up being overall more beneficial.

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For dance, music or tennis one option is to attend the high school but get the high school to accept some online courses. We used vhslearning.org but there are many possibilities. This is a compromise that maintains some of the benefits- social, and extracurricular- of high school while providing the flexibility needed for tennis (or in our case, music and dance).