Open discussion: does this make sense?

Paying for College
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<p>So, think of financial aid at Ivy league schools. Pretty good according to [FinAid</a> | Answering Your Questions | No Loans for Low Income Students](<a href=“http://www.finaid.org/questions/noloansforlowincome.phtml]FinAid”>http://www.finaid.org/questions/noloansforlowincome.phtml), right? I’ve heard of kids getting out of an ivy league with no debt en masse. </p>

<p>How come the best of the best of the best (1% approximately) students , who are consistently the wealthies students in america, at the best of the best of the best (1% approximately) colleges get such amazing financial aid oppertunities? Do they even need it in the first place? </p>

<p>Does it make sense that students whose families earn under 10,000 a year get an average SAT score of 1313 vs. students whose families earn over 100,000 a year, 1656 on SAT?</p>

<p>Based on that statistic, where is that poor boy or girl going to get an education (assuming he/she will even get an education)? Will she go to Yale where she knows most of her tuition will be paid for? No, because her family was poor, and more than likely she grew up in a poor neighborhood with a poor school, which offers no SAT prep course (unlike affluent upperclass schools which pamper their students because they have $$$$) offers no AP classes, and does not adequately prepare one for college.</p>

<p>Does it make sense that the students who dont need aid will most likely have all the aid they need? Does it make sense that those who need aid (which is the major, not the minority) will not get all they need versus the 1% who got all they needed and then some?</p>

<p>In reality, I do know why this terrible cycle is perpetuated: stratification. but I want to stimulate some kind of discussion.</p>

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<p>Well, the thing is, pretty much the Ivy schools you’re talking about have only need-based aid these days. That means that as much as you’d like to think that the top 1% of earners (somewhere around 250K, last I looked) get tons of aid, they don’t. (If they did, they wouldn’t all be complaining on CC about how hard it was for “the middle class!”) Sure, a few of them do, because the parents hide assets or get creative, but for the most part, those rich kids <em>don’t</em> get that aid. </p>

<p>On the other hand, there are increasing numbers of programs to put kids that historically haven’t been admitted to the Ivies into them now. Questbridge, Posse, etc – the point is to reach the very kids you don’t think can get in, and get them there. I think we’re seeing a gradual change that has been going on for a generation or so now and is being accelerated. It’s not a sudden overturn of the status quo, but it’s something.</p>

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<p>I agree with TrinSF. The Ivy schools and those few others with similarly generous need-based aid are making a place for low-income students with excellent stats. And those students are sometimes cut a little slack if their very high stats are not quite as high as more affluent kids.</p>

<p>There is a tough spot though for lower and modest income kids with average stats. They can get admitted to many very good, but less-selective, colleges. The problem is that those colleges don’t have the deep pockets and amazing FA that the Ivys and similar colleges have.</p>

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<p>OP… I don’t think you’ve got a clear picture of how the FA system works. If poor students have the numbers, they can go through any of the Ivies for pretty much nothing out of pocket. If they don’t have the numbers to get in, that is not a reflection on the colleges at all. That is a problem with secondary education.</p>

<p>The affluent do not get financial help from the Ivies and near-Ivies. Those schools are pretty much entirely need-based.</p>

<p>Now there are plenty of colleges out there that will roll out the money for low-income students who are admitted and do not have the numbers to get into an Ivy or near-Ivy. Unfortunately, the FA system is shrouded in so much confusion that most of those students have no idea what is available to them.</p>

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<p>I think the Ivies are doing incredibly generous things to pull in kids who CAN be high achievers, who worked hard and excelled at THEIR school (regardless of rigor), but who can’t afford an elite education (or, indeed, any at all). There used to be NO chance for a bright but low income student who couldn’t pay the tuition. Now there IS a chance. </p>

<p>“Where will a poor boy go to college”? If he works hard and gets good grades he can go wherever he is accepted. My D’s high public high school serves both the poorest inner city and the richest in our large city. It’s a very diverse district. All kids get the same opportunities (I know this is not true of all schools). So, if the poor inner city child gets great grades (and one friend of my D is like this…he’s top 10 kids of 700 students)…he’ll go to a state U on a huge scholarship (this friend is doing that right now). </p>

<p>If this kid doesn’t have the academic chops, then he can put himself through school with jobs and loans.<br>
My own brother went to a state University with ZERO dollars. Orphaned very young, he worked every summer after 12 years of age and saved every penny. Once he matriculated, he took TONS of credit hours because it was a flat rate (so you could either graduate early, or maybe get a masters in 4 years, etc.). He was a star athlete in high school, but not recruited and didn’t play in college because he wanted more time for academics. He worked AT the school all 4 years, and of course every summer from sun up to sun down. When he graduated as an electrical engineer…a national company called him every week until he agreed to work for them. He put in about 35 years and just retired recently. Hard work = a good education, a good life, and money in the bank. </p>

<p>And you say that brighter/richer kids are getting aid from the Ivies. You’ve already heard people saying that’s not really how it works. And having a lower SAT isn’t the “be-all-end-all” anymore. Colleges can see when an applicant didn’t have the opportunities others had. That’s why they want you to excel, based on what YOUR school offers. </p>

<p>Know that there are a lot of people that get squeezed from both ends. My D didn’t have the time, money, or inclination to participate in ANY prep for her standardized tests but got a 2210SAT/34ACT. It wasn’t a phenomenal schools that gave her these scores, she was singled out for gifted programs from day 1 of first grade. Some things are just God given. But all the added hard work in the world (for a good GPA) isn’t going to get her into an Ivy. Because we’re in the “no man’s land” where they won’t offer us much aid, yet we really can’t afford to pay full tuition (long story). So, honestly, there are many times where a lower income but brilliant student has a MUCH better chance at an Ivy education that middle class. Nothing is guaranteed for anyone. </p>

<p>Bottom line…that “poor kid” can do pretty much anything he wants these days. As long as he’s willing to work for it. And I’d say it’s a pretty amazing country where alumni donate so much that private colleges are willing to “share their wealth”. I’m a hard core republican, so I quibble some with being caught in the middle. But this system is really working to encourage talented youngsters to find a way.</p>

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<p>I think the OP’s point is wrong-headed.</p>

<p>The ivies are using their own money. They can do what they want with it regardless.</p>

<p>That said, the ivies do “need based” aid. The student has to show demonstrated “need”.</p>

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<p>I think the OP has a point in that the poorest students very often do not have access to a good education, often do not have a home environment that is conducive to success in school, often do not have a background that has exposed them to many things “most” kids take for granted. I will never forget the time we drove a couple inner city kids to camp when we took our daughter. The girl had never seen real cows just grazing by the side of the road … she was astounded. She asked what “those big things” were … they were rolls of hay. She was confused when we stopped at a rest stop … she had no idea that there were public bathrooms by the side of a highway. These are small things … yet they are indicative of the gap in experience that plagues many poor students.</p>

<p>I truly believe that many schools are trying to help underprivileged students matriculate. Some are good at helping them assimilate once they are on campus. Other schools could probably do a much better job of providing necessary support services once these students arrive on campus. </p>

<p>Personally, while I think it’s great that private schools are reaching out & pulling in the poorest kids … I think it’s primarily the responsibility of public institutions to educate those who do not clearly demonstrate that they have the necessary educational background to succeed in college.</p>

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<p>kelsmom… I had a friend in college, straight out of the Chicago west-side suburbs (hardly disadvantaged at all) who on one of his first trips to the University of Iowa was shocked to see cows were not chained up in the pasture so they wouldn’t attack someone.</p>

<p>Believe it or not, this is absolutely true. And he was no dolt. This was one sharp guy.</p>

<p>Affluence is no guarantee of world awareness at all.</p>

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<p>It’s not just those schools though that meet aid to extreme low income kids. Speaking for Michigan, UMich and MSU both meet full need for kids with poverty level income (in-state). They also have numerous programs to help low-income kids get acclimated to the environment. </p>

<p>Personally, I think it’s the upper-low class to lower-middle class kids that get the raw end of the deal more than poverty kids. I’m going to be in that category next year (at just about 1k above poverty, pretty much all I’m going to get is Pell and Stafford loans because of how rigid the cutoff is).</p>

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<p>It is by far more difficult for these “poor kids” to get into one of the Universities that will give them the need based aid they need to attend schools because of the lack of resources they receive. Most of them are not surrounded with the influences and opportunities that other teens get and their SATs and GPAs suffer.</p>

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<p>R12 - *My D didn’t have the time, money, or inclination to participate in ANY prep for her standardized tests but got a 2210SAT/34ACT. *</p>

<p>Awesome stats! That ACT is **deep **into the 99th percentile! Congrats to your D! Where will she likely be going to school?</p>

<p>:)</p>

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<p>A poor kid can always go to the local library, check out some SAT or ACT prep books and self study. :)</p>

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<p>I am aware of that. I was one of them. But most don’t even know they have that opportunity.</p>

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<p>“A poor kid can always go to the local library, check out some SAT or ACT prep books and self study.”</p>

<p>If they have the time to do that. Many poor kids are working jobs or are taking care of siblings after school and on weekends.</p>

<p>If there’s a public library that they can get to, and if that library is open at times the kids can access it.</p>

<p>Many poor kids are in areas that lack things like conveniently located, well stocked public libraries. They also may lack transportation to get to the library. Most of the U.S. lacks public transportation. Most poor kids don’t have cars or other transportation of their own.</p>

<p>Due to the economy, all over the country, public libraries are closing and reducing their hours.</p>