Regarding “blaming the victim” ---- sometimes the victim is truly blameless, but other times they get some blame because they did something risky and dangerous. Loss of life is tragic, but it doesn’t take away from a tragedy to acknowledge, if appropriate, the victim’s responsibility for poor decisions that resulted in their harm. News stories from my area that involved risk that resulted in harm include riding a bike or a motorcycle without a helmet, speeding, drinking and driving, rock climbing without proper training and/or equipment, going into the mountains unprepared, skiing out-of-bounds (especially without an an avalanche beacon), not seeking shelter in a lightning storm, trying to get close to a moose to get a photo, and in this case, traveling to a country that the State Department warns against visiting and a country the U.S. has zero diplomatic relations with — these are all risks and sadly, sometimes risk results in tragedy. I feel terrible this young man, a good guy with a promising future, was killed by the North Koreans and I feel really sorry for his family, but he shouldn’t have been there. It’s not victim blaming, it’s just fact. It was reported that “his parents were okay” with the trip, but they were critical of the Obama administration for not doing “enough” to free their son. I understand their feelings, but the rest of us should be telling our kids they shouldn’t take a pleasure trip to certain countries and if they do, they can’t expect the U.S will have the ability to rescue them.
Sometimes I wish we hadn’t agreed to let our son study in Lebanon. The State Department’s website states that:
"The Department of State warns U.S. citizens to avoid travel to Lebanon because of the threats of terrorism, armed clashes, kidnapping, and outbreaks of violence, especially near Lebanon’s borders with Syria and Israel. U.S. citizens living and working in Lebanon should be aware of the risks of remaining in the country and should carefully consider those risks.
In the event that the security climate in Lebanon worsens, U.S. citizens will be responsible for arranging their own travel out of Lebanon. The Embassy does not offer protection services to U.S. citizens who feel unsafe."
I know, though, that if we had refused to help pay for him to go to the American University of Beirut, he would have gone to Lebanon, anyway, and volunteered in the camps without working towards a degree. My dad’s ex-students from Lebanon are looking out for him and assure us he’ll be OK. Situations are not always black and white - I’m sure some of our friends think we’re nuts!
Good luck to your son, MaineLonghorn. Life is complicated, isn’t it? As a parent, you don’t always get the choice to say no. You are lucky to have such people looking out for him there!
I respect and admire the work your son is doing, @MaineLonghorn, and his reasons for being there are to help people in the camps, coming from a place of being a change agent. Although the risks are scary to contemplate, I’m sure your son is aware of them and his motivation is different from being a tourist.
Based on the episode all I got was that he was in a restricted area. That was seen in the security cameras. I am not able to validate who took posters of a wall. I have no way of verifying that or making a judgement on that.
All I am saying it was a risk to go to North Korea and it was a risk he was willing to take. Did he go to the restricted area? If he did that was his decision. No one forced him to go to that floor. That was a chance he was willing to take. He may have felt that nothing would happen to him.
He decided to take this trip knowing the risks involved. Someone else who is risk adverse wouldn’t have thought to enter North Korea to celebrate New Year’s eve. How nice it would have been if he had not been diverted from his plans and had reached home safely. It just didn’t happen in this situation.
At the end of the day he is someone’s son and the family is mourning what happened and his loss.
No one should have to deal with such circumstances. As parents they were helpless hoping someone would be able to save him.
Wishing you and your S the best @MaineLonghorn – scary when they’re so far from us. You know he is happy and helping people and there are great friendly folks looking out for him.
I saw that video and absolutely you can not tell. How did they conclude that was him and not someone else from the tour? I am also wondering why would he go to the restricted area and take down a poster without some proof or a witness. What for? If it was a “dare” then some other people from the tour should have known. Or he would have taken some pictures himself etc. Otherwise why do it? Unless his tour mates know but don’t want to talk. Or he thought he can take the poster as proof but then figured out that was not a good idea. Just wondering.
I also found it odd that he would go to the 5th floor alone and that no one else on the tour knew what he was doing. And how did he even know how to get to the 5th floor? Floor 5 was not indicated on the elevator buttons so how did he get there? If it was really a restricted area then wouldn’t any entrance from the stairwell be locked?
I find it curious that someone from the tour company made it a point to tell them they could not go to the 5th floor. Why would any tour participant even think to do so or know it even existed since there was no 5th floor indicated in the elevator? It’s like they were setting a trap to lure some tourist to try it and then get taken as a hostage.
In the early 80s, it was controversial but not that uncommon for American college students, especially those studying in Europe, to go on highly controlled/ propaganda tours to the Soviet Union. I went on one of these trips and also visited East Germany. It was illegal, but apparently tolerated, to trade western goods for souvenirs. I , along with several fellow students, did this and thought nothing of it. (No one would call me a “risk taker” or “thrill seeker”–quite the opposite.)
Hearing Otto’s story makes me wonder what could have happened if the law had been enforced?
I feel terrible for Otto and his family. There is no evidence he did anything to deserve torture and death. Yes, he took a risk going there. IF he went into off-limits areas or tried to steal a souvenir, he was foolish and impulsive, as many young people are. As I was at 20 or 21. Perhaps others did similar things and got away with it. He suffered and died a long slow death. NK is responsible. May he RIP.
The 20/20 video showed a stairwell passageway to the 5th floor that was full of propaganda posters.
They didn’t show him walking through that passageway in the 20/20 video but it was mentioned that this is the way he would have gotten to the 5th floor. I am not even talking about the video that’s out there of someone removing a poster or one being on the floor. That video isn’t clear. What was said was that he was caught in the hotel security cameras going to the 5th floor. That video has not been released in public if there is such footage. If that is true my concern is what made him decide to go there. When we go to another country we have to follow the rules of that place. What is normal behavior in the U.S. may not be acceptable in other parts of the world. Knowingly disregarding rules such as guests were forbidden on the 5th floor means no one goes there period. If he still did that then there was an error in judgement. That is the issue that is bothering me.
As there’s no evidence that a clear video of Otto Warmbier breaking any rules or laws exists, much of this is a moot point; why are we giving North Korea the benefit of the doubt rather than the college student whose death they caused?
But in either case, I find the deference being paid to the laws of other countries astounding. Yes, of course you need to be aware of and follow the laws of countries you are visiting as a matter of self-preservation – but a law that is absurd and unjust doesn’t deserve respect. A country could pass a law making it a capital crime to drive a mile above or below the speed limit. Again, it would behoove anyone travelling there to be aware of that rule, but if someone were executed for driving 57 mph in a 55 zone, I don’t think the appropriate response would be “Well, countries have a right to make their own laws, and he should have followed this one.” Which is true, but also tone-deaf and besides the point once you’re dealing with a tragedy of this kind.
I would certainly never go to North Korea, and wouldn’t have even before this incident. But in terms of relative risk, I’m not actually sure Otto was making such an abominably stupid decision. In raw numbers, how many Americans have traveled to NK in the past ten years, and how many have been detained? Of this number, how many were detained who were there purely as tourists, as opposed to those who were on mission trips or there as journalists? Now, if Otto did deface a propoganda poster, that changes the calculus, but if he didn’t – again, not a risk I would take, but not necessarily total idiocy. At least before this incident, it was more reasonable to avoid NK because of not wanting to prop up a brutal dictatorship than because there was any significant chance of winding up in a gulag.
As for white privilege – I’m skeptical. Plenty of minority teens and young adults do really stupid things, after all, whether or not they have to money to make international travel a reality.
I really think we take for granted the freedoms, rights and comforts we have as U.S. citizens in this country. We can’t imagine anyone in the world not living how we live or having the same rights that we have here.
Seriously! This is a country that imprisons hundreds of thousands of people for life, including infants and children. Starves their citizens while they build nukes, their ruler gets fat and kills his enemies in the most brutal way possible. Spreads massive anti-American propaganda. So why would any of us here give NK the benefit of the doubt that—Oh My God, Otto ripped down a propaganda poster? Why would anyone believe a word that they said?
I don’t think you can speak for everyone’s experience. Anyone who has ever traveled, watched tv, a movie, read a book or watched the news about many countries would not take this for granted. I think many people are not as appreciative as they should be, and focus on how terrible every little thing is here, but if they are even remotely aware of living conditions and the lack of freedom in many other countries, they understand how fortunate we are.
If you’re traveling overseas, check to see if there’s a State travel warning for a country you’re headed to. If there is, read it and take it seriously.
And even if he had, it in no way justified the horrifically brutal treatment which lead to his death.
Another thing to keep in mind is that North Korea has had a decades-long history of kidnapping foreigners…including US citizens from other Asian countries and confining them in NK for years…sometimes even decades.
Have you heard of this story?
This seems a bit of a stretch to me, the boy was presumed killed hiking, but now the parents think he was kidnapped and has been living in NK for 13 years.
@eyemamom, Sadly it could be true based on the past actions of NK
Here are other stories
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_abductions_of_Japanese_citizens
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_abductions_of_South_Koreans
and for those who don’t like FOX,
^ ^
NK also kidnapped SE Asians and Laura Ling, the sister of journalist Lisa Ling who was filming a news story on the Chinese/NK border from the Chinese side.
Just curious how it is KNOWN that the culprit was NK and not some other malevelent person/force than NK kidnapping these individuals.