I think the Warmbier story got traction precisely because it was a story about an American who had committed nothing more than a misdemeanor receiving a draconian sentence from the NK government. I think if he were a student of color it would have gotten similar press.
But perhaps more to the point, I doubt many URM kids would go on a trip like the one one Otto W. took. They and their families are too well aware that life is not always charmed and the government does not always seem to be on one’s side.
Sue22-I’m just going to disagree. I don’t think any of this has to do with color or being URM or how you were brought up “rich or charmed or whatever”. I think the problem is NK.
“If you remove some of the comments from the professor, then doesn’t at least the gist of her comments ring true? That is a privilege is it not?”
What do you think is the gist of her comments? What is a privilege?
I’m sure we can remove all of her offensive comments and find something on her Facebook page that we agree with. Like if she complimented someone’s cat, or said it was a nice day outside. But that doesn’t make the cruel comments and generalizations she made any more acceptable.
"Warmbier was enrolled at the University of Virginia, where he was studying for a double major degree in commerce and economics and did an exchange at the London School of Economics. His minor was in global sustainability. He was a third-year student when he traveled to China, followed by a side-trip to North Korea.
In May 2017 the Washington Post interviewed some of Warmbier’s college friends, who described him, according to the paper, as a “sports fan who can reel off stats about seemingly any team, a friendly Midwesterner who can break down underground rap lyrics (and craft some of his own), a deep thinker who would challenge himself and others to question their place in the world, a guy from an entrepreneurial family who ate half-price sushi, an insatiably curious person with a strong work ethic and a delight in the ridiculous.”
Wonder why people are assuming he was rich and particularly privileged. Is it because he was white? Jewish? His father is a small business owner of a metal finishing company. Otto sounded very accomplished and smart, and he is being presented as a brainless frat boy.
Sometimes when horrific things happen (health disasters, natural tragedies, violence, whatever), people try to distance themselves by reassuring themselves that the victim is SO different from them because of x, y, z. It’s heard a lot in certain conditions like HIV/AIDs initially. Fortunately, there are many that realize that “There but for the grace of XXX goes any of us.”
If Professor Dettwyler did continue to teach, if it were my son I would recommend that he avoid her class at all costs. After her statements I believe no white male who appears to have resources would get a fair shake in her class. I find it absurd that she paints “so many” of these students as “rich and clueless.” How does she know their financial status? So not only did she show extreme bias in her statements but she is likely attributing characteristics to many of these students that have no basis in fact. She should know better.
There are many assignments where professors have a lot of discretion in grading papers and tests. This professor has now admitted a bias against a certain sector of white males, so chances are that group may not fare as well as others. GPA is extremely important – my D was asked to disclose it on every summer internship app. While I do understand the free speech concern, that has to be balanced against the obvious issues that arise when a university employs a professor who has publicly admitted a bias against a whole segment of the student body. She really can’t perform her job effectively.
“Thank God that wasn’t my kid” was exactly what I thought when this story came out. Despite the fact that I hope my kid never does something as foolish as take a pleasure trip to NK I could see him in Otto Warmbier and my family in his family.
That said, there is an inherent privilege in being a white middle class/ upper middle class male from the US and that privilege can lead to naivete about how things work elsewhere in the world. I have no doubt Otto was a kind, generous, humble kid and obviously he didn’t deserve what happened to him in any way, shape or form. I certainly didn’t call him spoiled or rich. I do think a kid who had grown up in less security would have been less likely to make this trip.
Adding: I wouldn’t want this prof. teaching my kid either. I think the decision not to invite her back was a good one. I just like the “String her up!!” cacophony.
Doschicos–Let me begin by saying that anyone who destroys public or private property, that isn’t their own, should be punished. Thats disrespectful. If you want to equate that to NK, go ahead. Thats your propagative. As for UC Berkeley (btw I appreciate your tolerance of my poor spelling) being one of a few instances where violence erupted in the midst of a protest is a silly attempt to obscure the obvious because we know we can all list many instances where violence has erupted and property has been damaged, unnecessarily (Trump March in Chicago, Occupy Wall Street, Milwaukeee Riots, Ferguson, MO riots and the LA and Oakland riots following the acquittal of the Trevon Martin case). But regardless, even if this was the only time, its still unacceptable. Its deplorable, reprehensible behavior. As a taxpayer, I hate to see my taxpayer dollars going to the replacement of windows and storefronts all because some protester(s) couldn’t keep it in check. I have no problem with freedom of speech, but that behavior is just destructive and has little to do with freedom of speech and lots to do with individuals who have no idea how to articulate themselves and are using that particular opportunity to act like animals, by busting windows and looting stores etc.
Like other people on this thread the story of Otto Warmbier captured my attention. I think it is because I have a son who is his age. Mistakes are easy at that age and I think it has more to do with being young than a sense of entitlement. At any rate I saw my son in Otto Warmbier.
Kathy Dettwyler was very quick to assign the label of entitled to someone she has never met. I wonder if she can now own up to her own sense of entitlement. I’m talking of the sense of entitlement she apparently felt for the job that she no longer has. Her post was so extraordinarily insensitive and so full of contempt for the very students she teaches it would appear that she felt her job was hers regardless of anything she said.
She might very well be a good teacher. I suspect what happened was that she made a mistake. That is also what Otto Warmbier did, he made a mistake and he didn’t deserve what happened to him. I hope that Kathy Dettwyler can now see that anyone can have a lapse of judgment and it does not mean that they deserve the resulting fallout.
I just looked at the YPT website and saw at the very top a TripAdvisor logo/Certificate of Excellence for 2014, 2015 and 2016.
I’m not sure who runs Trip Advisor but I wonder if if has considered “rescinding” its award. Probably getting into internet censorship territory but I do wonder at what point (if any) YPT is made a corporate pariah.
These two sentences seem like some rather large overgeneralizations. Or maybe I brought my sons up incorrectly.
I should have told them that because of their middle class male whiteness, they’ll never have to experience the things that others do. They will never be touched by mental illness, depression, addiction, grief and loss, joblessness, illness or accidents. I should have told them that they’ll never have to worry about any of those things, they have the security of being white, male and middle class, which makes up for everything. Then maybe they’d be out there traveling, feeling privileged and not knowing about how the world works, instead of working their butts off to pay the bills. Apparently their non-white, female or non-middle class friends must have the innate ability to understand how the world actually works, and instead of traveling, are hiding in the closet from all the scary things in the world.
I’ve learn from reading this thread and the links to other articles that these tourist trips to NK are a lot more common and easy to arrange than I knew. A few of the reviewers have been on several tours, and it appears that some of the groups are very into drinking and taking on ‘danger.’
I was willing to believe that the video of Otto taking down the poster was a set up, but after reading an interview with another tourist, it seems that running through the ‘off limits’ areas of the hotel was a challenge that many of them did. Sort of like streaking across the quad or poking a Beefeater in London. It’s exciting, it’s a dare, everyone does it.
@Busdriver11, where did I ever say being relatively privileged by world standards would shield one from illness or tragedy? Let’s not get carried away here.
Here’s an example. When my family traveled to Morocco we stayed in the Medina of Marrakesh, the old city. I was very explicit with my girls about how they needed to dress-arms and legs covered, and one of my kids found that irritating. She insisted that she should be able to wear whatever she wanted but I put my foot down. It wasn’t until she saw a couple of girls in, by Western standards, modest sundresses being scolded by women and spat on by men that she understood that it didn’t matter what seemed fair to her. By doing what seemed reasonable by American standards she could be putting herself in danger. This is the kind of privilege I’m talking about. She’d never been in a situation where what she wore put her at risk so she naively assumed that was the case in other places as well.
As @LeastComplicated’s post points out, not everyone enjoys this kind of privilege. The only thing I’ve ever told my kids about interactions with the police are “Always be extra respectful and call them Sir/Maam” and “If you’re arrested immediately ask for a lawyer.” I’ve never had to tell them how they should dress when walking through a nice neighborhood or what to do with their hands if they’re pulled over by the police or how they should park their car if they’re waiting to pick up a friend. These are the kinds of things parents of kids of color, particularly black kids have to discuss with their children to keep them safe.
Sue, your post illustrates the example of the privilege it is to be an American citizen. It doesn’t reinforce your example of privilege of being, “a white middle class/ upper middle class male” to enable you to be naïve.
And I have told my sons what to do with their hands when they are pulled over (you certainly ought to tell yours, they are going to get shot just as dead as anyone if a police officer thinks they are reaching for a gun, their whiteness will not protect them). I don’t have to tell my kids how to dress, as they wear geek wear, non threatening to anyone, but if they wore hoodies and baggy pants, they would get a lecture.
Generalizations. Most of the non-white people I know are fairly wealthy, well traveled and secure. I don’t generalize that everyone is like this, but people certainly aren’t clueless or naïve because of the color of their skin, their sex, or their net worth.
In case you haven’t watched it I encourage you to look at the episode of 20/20 aired last Friday.
It talked in more detail about the tour he took and the hotel he was staying. The area that was restricted in the hotel was the 5th floor.
(reading post 315) “after reading an interview with another tourist, it seems that running through the ‘off limits’ areas of the hotel was a challenge that many of them did. Sort of like streaking across the quad or poking a Beefeater in London. It’s exciting, it’s a dare, everyone does it.”
What I believe got him into trouble is he making the decision to take on the challenge of going to the restricted area. (the 5th floor) From the episode I got the impression that he loved adventure having gone on tours to Cuba and Israel and some other destinations.
Watch the episode and see how you interpret what they showed. It’s right under the 20/20 highlights. http://abcnews.go.com/2020
Is the restricted floor that you speak of, the same place where Otto took the propaganda poster? If thats the case then theres not any proof that he actually even did that. The video that NK shows us is grainy and the figure is all in black. No one can tell if thats truly Otto. In addition, Otto was tall, and the person in the video doesn’t appear as tall. So again, if that is the same situation Im not even sure that we can say that he even did what they accuse him of.
