Quant - re #2 - the US dropped leaflets for the Germans about the concentration camps, etc and many thought it was propaganda, or that we were the ones doing it and blaming the Germans. It took quite awhile to convince people that it was their own government. Imagine how hard it would be for people who literally have no view of the outside world beyond what they’re told.
I would have flipped if my kid wanted to go to NK and would have said absolutely no. when my D was an undergrad, she was asked to go to Iraq/Syria on behalf of the antiquities - I told her that I couldn’t physically restrain her, but that I would absolutely cut her off financially. Ultimately, although the trip had the support of the US government and the UN, it was deemed too dangerous. But I wasn’t kidding. There are some places my kids don’t need to be at certain times.
My son went to China in high school. His school had a hardcore, not kidding for a minute, meeting with the kids and the parents about how to conduct themselves, how to be respectful in a different culture, and that if there were any misbehavior that got them brought to the attention of the Chinese authorities, they should expect no assistance. They all behaved fine, and had an excellent experience. Interestingly, a couple of the kids got very sick (possibly stomach virus or food poisoning), and the Chinese officials were helpful and kind. Everyone made it home safely and had a great time.
My son is getting a job at a government contractor and I saw there was a job posting for his position in afghanistan. I told him I didn’t care how old he was, I would chain him to the basement before I let him go there, NK, Syria, Iraq. Not that he wants to go, but I did tell my kids in no uncertain terms that there are plenty of places in the world to go and have an adventure - those areas are not it.
@QuantMech - trying to drop anything in North Korea would be dangerous with their leader’s paranoia and new missiles itching for a target.
One of the news commentators described N. Korea in this way - The Korean War ended for us but not for them and they have been fighting it ever since. For me, that was hard to imagine, sitting in the relative peace in the US.
If your kid works for a security service there will probably be times that you have no idea where they are or what they’re doing, or at most a vague sense.
The ‘Book of Honor’ is very good . . . talks about the careers of some of the CIA ‘stars’ on the wall (with no names).
One of my favorite scenes from ‘Homeland’ was when they showed that wall with the stars, and when Carrie etched a star on the wall herself.
But do I think this was Otto Warmbier? Not necessarily (probably not actually). His story never really made sense to me though.
My BIL has been asked by a priest friend to go to Syria on a humanitarian mission. My SIL said sure. I asked them if they were crazy. No way, no how would I want a loved one there right now. There are many places that could use some aid. He doesn’t have to go to Syria to be helpful.
All of these scenarios about spies is victim blaming.
The kid went to NoKo on a side trip with a tour group who claimed great safety records with the parents blessing. And it wasn’t safe–he was held hostage and returned in “non-responsive state (a vegetative state)” when the NoKoreans didn’t know what to do with him after who knows what was done to him for who knows what purpose. Their culture doesn’t require a purpose to hold people.
The main “problem” is that as American citizens we find it hard to fathom how cruel the rest of the world can operate.
It really speaks highly to our humanity as a culture that we “don’t get it”. It’s been a wake-up call for sure.
North Korea has a Museum of American War Atrocities. They certainly haven’t forgotten that war which was just a small event for us between WWII and Vietnam. I heard that we “ran out of targets” during the Korean War and soldiers were given permission to bomb dams and other things that are considered a war crime. Not that that in any way justifies anything else…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinchon_Museum_of_American_War_Atrocities
Interesting POV from Otto’s roommate in NK:
The only person I know who’s been to NK is my cousin, who went there a number of times a while back, when he was working at the Canadian embassy in Beijing. He said it was the most depressing place he’d ever been, but he never felt unsafe. He was there on an official mission, to work on the sale/donation of Canadian wheat, so the government was probably happy to have him there. I don’t think he’s gone back since.
It’s true the State Department does everything it can to retrieve American hostages. On the 3 hikers who wandered into Iran a few years ago, my son was working in Baghdad at the time and saw the intense and sustained efforts of his colleagues to get them freed.
One thing I can recommend if you travel to dodgy places, for whatever reason: Sign up on the State Department website, so they can contact you if you end up needing to be evacuated. We did this when we went to Central Asia last year–including Turkmenistan but not with the Young Pioneers tours thankfully. We didn’t have any problems, but will take similar precautions in the future. Ironically, we did not include the initial part of our trip, in Turkey–and ended up being in Ankara during the coup.
I just walked by a TV where CNN was showing footage of Otto sobbing upon receiving his sentence. When we all saw that footage originally, we probably wondered why he couldn’t be a bit more stoic. But now we know what they had done to him before then and what they did afterwards. He knew what he was in for. How terribly heartbreaking.
Any discussion about victim blaming shows the PC crowd has gone off the deep end. If NK wants to make spitting on the sidewalk a capital offense, there’s nothing we can do about it except tell our people not to go there.
I don’t think we know at all.
Missypie -Agreed. What happened beforehand? I haven’t heard anything about that. Please explain.
In actual fact, it didn’t end for us either as North Korea is technically still in a state of war with the South Korea, US, and the UN. What we’ve had since 1953 was a decades-long armistice.
Hence, the heavily militarized DMZ, US military presence, and South Korea’s strict enforcement of the mandatory draft for all male citizens to maintain a standing military force of ~600,000 and the harsh regimen it subjects its conscripts.
However, most Americans and US popular consciousness tend to forget that fact.
I can say honestly that I never studied the Korean War in HS or college nor do I think I have ever seen a documentary on it. My education was definitely lacking. The little I know I got from MASH
To me, calling him crazy for going there (which i have seen many people online do) is victim blaming. My only point is that I don’t think he was a careless or stupid young adult; if anything, he sounds quite the opposite. He was by all accounts an outstanding student and driven young person.
Nothing he did called for what happened to him. It is horrifying. In no way would I ever blame him. If he was there for some undisclosed reason he was probably braver than we know. At the very least he was an adventurous guy trying to see the world. I, personally, am amazed that someone so young had already gone the places he had gone. Praying for him and his family.
This is unfortunately a common issue which tends to irk most Korean War vets I know. Especially considering many Americans were conscripted to serve in the conflict and some WWII vets with combat experience* were recalled back to the military. It’s also a reason why the Korean War has been dubbed “The Forgotten war”.
- Ted Williams of baseball fame was recalled back to the Marines for the Korean War because he had pilot training from the Marines during WWII. .
That’s because while China has had its share of political atrocities (just like most other countries at some point in their history), it is not at all comparable to North Korea. I don’t think any country can be compared to North Korea.
I have been to China seven times and the officials and other people I met were always very helpful and kind. Above and beyond actually. In fact, it is very safe for foreigners to go to China because citizens who commit crimes against foreigners are punished severely. I think government officials probably know that maintaining good relations with us is a good thing economically and Chinese people are just genuinely nice, on average. They really enjoy American culture, movies, music, etc. A large percentage of them learn English for a hobby and take on English names (even though they could never afford to travel to the U.S.)
On the other hand, North Korea is just an absurdly strange place run by a sociopath.
A part of that was because Mainland China itself experienced a slightly milder versions of what has been going on in NK not too long ago. One was the Great Leap Forward when an ill-conceived attempt to overtake the UK in steel production ended up factoring into a mass famine in the late '50s/early '60s and the Chinese Cultural Revolution when things got so bad the nation’s entire education/research infrastructure was shut down for a decade.
Most of the current CCP were descended from the factions which were persecuted during the latter by Mao’s red guards for being “Capitalist roaders”. Hence, their wariness for cults of personality and protests…especially by students and workers/peasants* and embrace of most aspects of capitalistic economics…and the current CCP’s increasing impatience/contempt for the Kim dynasty…especially Kim Jong Un**.
- This factored heavily into Deng Xiaoping's decision to order the brutal military crackdown on 6/4/89
** Didn’t help that his executing of his own uncle was due in part to the uncle’s known favoring a closer relationship with the Mainland Chinese government. Kim Jong Un disagreed.