That was a great show. I’m sure some of it must have been accurate, right? 
I do believe the part about the civilians and soldiers desperately wanting it to end and not wanting to be away from loved ones was and is true for pretty much every conflict. I believe the land mines that were planted still blow up unaware people periodically. 
@ cobrat Yeah, my comment pretty simplistic - but the things you described were the “political atrocities” I was referring to, which yes, definitely had an impact on the recent positive political evolution of China. It still has it’s problems, but things have improved greatly even in the 18 years between my first and last visit. Didn’t know about the reason for Kim Jong Un killing his uncle though - that’s interesting. They still have some evolving to do, particularly in their attitudes re Tibet and the Xinjiang province, reducing poverty, improving sanitary and environmental conditions (you can’t drink the water anywhere!). But the people are some of the nicest people I have ever met - extremely welcoming to foreigners. My husband and I got lost while on a walk near our hotel, and asked a couple of young ladies for help. They didn’t think giving us directions was good enough. They got off their bikes and walked several blocks back with us back to the hotel. I had many similar experiences during my trips there, and I can only remember a couple of times when we were treated rudely or disrespectfully (I get treated far worse in the city I live in now in the U.S).
One of my kids spent an extended amount of time in China including with a host family. The people encountered couldn’t have been more kind, generous, and helpful.
I disagree. Of course no one deserves to be beaten, or even arrested for arbitrary reasons, but he took a very irresponsible action of going to visit a country he was warned (by the State Department) not to go to. People do irresponsible things all the time - they wrestle alligators, swim with sharks, climb mountains unprepared for the weather or other conditions, ski out of bounds, and sometimes they pay a very high price and don’t survive. College students drink too much and climb buildings and fall off. If someone ‘vacations’ in Syria or some counties in Africa or get into a cage with lions, bad things can happen. He accepted that risk when he went, and his parents allowed it. I don’t believe for a minute that they didn’t know he was going, that he was going on a tour that advertises itself as ‘going where your mother doesn’t want you to go’, and that they knew there was a risk and that they couldn’t have said NO. He wasn’t the first US citizen to be arrested for no reason in N Korea. It is a risk every single person on that tour took.
My brother takes my kids on really fun vacations at Christmas. They will both be 21 this year. I still told him they cannot go to or through Turkey, the Philippines, any country in northern Africa, or anywhere else on the state department list of places NOT to go. There is an entire world to see, why go to countries without US diplomatic ties, that have been known to arrest and beat US citizens? I have the right to say NO, it’s too dangerous even if they are 21 and adults.
“any country in northern Africa”
No Morocco? How come?
@twoinanddone - yup, in tort law, that would be assumption of risk, and the case would likely have a fork stuck in it.
I keep telling my kiddos there are plenty of US states they have not visited. Big kid went to Gambia… was told to cut short her research project because it was against the law (after all, the prez of that country has cured aids). Little kid was declared persona non grata by a rogue country… I think both are over those adventurous parts. Big kid is married. Little kid said she was tired of living abroad and just wanted to have her own furniture. I bought her some nice stuff from Dania.
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Unfortunately, some personalities…especially young men over 18 will treat being told “no” as a form of encouragement to go out of stubbornness and thinking along the lines of “Who is [x…especially if the individual is not a parent of individual concerned or has a demonstrated inclination of “not being adventurous”] to tell me I can’t go.”
Some parents who understand this mentality among some of their own/others’ kids know well enough to use indirect, but more effective tactics to divert them from a foolhardy course.
^Exactly. Otherwise they just won’t tell you what they do. You’d only know if something horrible did happen.
My daughter is the adventurer/dare devil. She wants to go sky diving, I told her to not tell me about it until she’s done.
doschicos what do you mean in post 105
The post above that, #104, said: “I still told him they cannot go to or through Turkey, the Philippines, any country in northern Africa, or anywhere else on the state department list of places NOT to go.”
When I was a junior in college I studies abroad for a year in Spain. While abroad I backpacked all over. I encountered some truly wonderful people, that to this day I still think about, and then some not so wonderful people. But at that age I felt, worldly and smarter than the average college student. I had seen and encountered things that most kids my age had not. So I decided that I wanted to travel to Russia. At the time we were in the middle of the Cold War, but it never dawned on me that I couldn’t handle it. On top of that there were two ways to experience Russia. One could use the international hostel in Moscow, where you are taken around on a tour and exposed to exactly what they want you to see, or you could wing it. Travel solo. If you chose the second option, then the KGB would follow you. Needless to say, the tour option sounded droll. So I came home after a year abroad and told my parents that for Christmas break I wanted to go Russia. In addition, since I was a poor college student, I wanted to fly cargo (something that was actually allowed in those days, and very cheap.). My mother was furious with me! At the time, I could not for the life of me understand why she thought this was such a dreadful idea. To make a long story short, i never did go. My mother made it financially impossible (LOL and Thank God).
Now as a parent, I get it. Thats what ‘years of life experience’ does for you. But when you’re that age, very independent and adventurous, you just don’t understand the level of danger that exists in these other countries. Americans are very naive. Our democracy makes us clueless to the atrocities that exist outside our borders.
So, sadly I really don’t think this kid truly understood the gravity of his decision, until it was too late.
Yea I saw that. Are you saying that Morrocco is an OK place to travel?
Yup. Totally okay. One must take precautions as you would in many places if you were a young woman traveling solo. But I don’t think it should be barred from anyone’s list. We never felt our safety was at risk.
It’s not always naivete. Some folks are drawn in precisely because they know some degree of risk involved.
To be clear, I doubt that was what motivated Otto Warmbier from what’s been reported so far.
His going to N. Korea was not a casual thing. He had to get visas to go into China which involves sending your passport to a courier/consulate, then send it to this travel company to get whatever N Korea requires (a visa? permission to travel?) It takes a lot of planning.
All reports are that he was a nice, polite kid. Seems like he’d listen to his parents if they said “that’s crazy, don’t go to N Korea.”
I have one child who is not such a nice kid and doesn’t want to listen to me (and often does things just to defy me). She would not be able to figure out how to get a Chinese visa without my help. I don’t believe that there are all these totally independent 20-21 year olds out there who could plan and finance a trip to N Korea without their parents knowing about it or paying for it. There has been no indication that his parents didn’t support his adventure.
It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to pull off one of these trips, just a little cash and a desire for that kind of adventure. If you look at the Young Pioneers website, you can do a short budget trip for 500 euros and they’ll take care of your visa processing for an additional 50 euros. A student traveling in China with some extra cash in his pocket could easily do a weekend in NK without parental knowledge or help.
I think it’s fair to say based on immaturity and development, kids do stupid stuff, and parents can’t always control them. Unfortunately, we can’t always protect our kids from themselves or others. I continue to pray for Otto and the Warmbiers and am hoping for a miracle.
NK sent a message to the world: come to us, and you will leave in a vegetative state. The only possible silver lining of this terrible story is that maybe - maybe! - it could prevent a kid or two from going to a dangerous place. Maybe - because young people think they are invincible.