<p>I just wanted to say thank you for this thread, it has been really helpful. I have a question myself. If I were to major in Industrial Engineering, would I need to get a degree higher than a Bachelors in order to be competitive. Also, since you live/work in the Bay Area, are there any job opportunities as a patent lawyer with a specialty in utility/industrial engineering in NorCal?</p>
<p>I would suggest that you get a Master’s, either in industrial engineering or in another egineering field, unless you have substantial course work in mechanical or electrical engineering. People might feel that you didn’t have enough hard engineering to be able to properly understand many technologies - or you would have to convince them otherwise - if you even were given the chace to do so. Most patent opportunities in the Bay Area are in electronics or software, or high-level biotechnology, but there is some need for mechanical engineering.</p>
<p>Hi dadofsam, I’m a second year computer science major at UCLA. I’ve been very interested in ip law, but my gpa at this point is VERY low (~3.2), and I doubt I can raise it by many points. Is law school even worth considering at this point? I’m offset by the fact that a low gpa and probably an average LSAT won’t get me into a ver good law school.</p>
<p>Arklogic: I’m not current on law school admission practices, but I can tell you that every time the economy gets bad, as it is now, the number of applications to law schools increases, so that you will have even more competition than you would have had a few years ago.</p>
<p>If you read other threads on this board you will find sites where you can check the possibility of getting into law school in general based on your grades and LSAT scores. IP law doesn’t require that you go the the top law schools, but you do need to get into a school that is at least farily good in order to compete for that all-important first legal job.</p>
<p>However, if you find yourself struggling to get good grades in CS, consider whether you should change your major. The courses in the 3rd year will be tougher than those in the 2d.</p>
<p>Ok, so I just decided on law school (hard engineering isn’t for me and law seems like a good career path) however I am graduating in June, and taking the LSAT in December. I will graduate with my B.S. in Mechanical Engineering with ~3.2 GPA. I am an undergrad at the University of Cincinnati and plan to apply to law school there.</p>
<p>The advice that I need is more about how to make myself marketable. I’ve done a year and a half of coop at GE Aviation but have small amounts of community service and little professor interaction.</p>
<p>Are there things that I can start doing now that will help me A) get into a top 50 law school and/or B) help me with a very competitive job search post graduation.</p>
<p>I feel I’m pretty into it and would be able to get top 10%-15% of my class in Law just from the sheer fact of how much money I’m paying/giving up to go. Is that enough though to land a good job? I am studying for the LSAT now and I should be able to get ~160 which should get me into UC but after that/now what is there I can do to help make me a top canidate for law school/post-law school.</p>
<p>Thanks</p>
<p>Samuel01:</p>
<p>As stated in my post, I’m not able to comment on law school admissions. AS far as preparing yourself for the job search, don’t take it for granted that because you have the impetus you’ll do well in law school. Law school is extremely competitive after you get in. In the first year, which generally is the most difficult (because the type of material and ways if studying for it are not familiar to most students) the students are competing for the chance to be on the law review staff I(I finished in the top 10% of my class but did not make law review because my first semester grades were just average). After that, students compete for class standing, which is imprtant when seeking that entry-level position. So be prepared to compete yourself, from the beginning, if you can. yes, it ican be a rat race, which means that sometimes the rats win.</p>
<p>Hi! Dadofsam:
Thanks first for your post. I am a molecular biologist with PHD. I have several years post-doc experience in cancer and vaccine, so I will be 40 soon. I have decent publication and experience in writing academic and business grant (SBIR). If I go to law school, I will be around 43-44 when I graduate. Will my age be a disadvantage? Also, Chinease is my native language. Do you think with China on the rise, will there be more china company or institution apply for US patent in next 5 years, therefore, there will be some advantage for a bilingual patent lawyer? By the way, I am in Philadelphia area and have to stay in here. Or do you think I should try to do patent agent first? Law school is a big commitment in both financial and life. please tell me like it is. No sugar coding.</p>
<p>Dear Lindaliu:
Chinese companies have rapidly moved into carrying out original research in pharmaceuticals and biotech, and have begun submitting new molecules for regulatory approval (outside the US) so, yes, they should be filing more patent applications very shortly. And for that reason, Chinese language abilities will be useful (of course there already are a number of US patent attorneys who are fluent in Chinese).
As I stated in one of my posts, Im not able to predict the future, including the exact need for Chinese-speaking biotech patent attorneys in 3-4 years.
In the current economy, companies are looking more for patent agents than they had in the past, to save money on salaries. However, in my opinion, they may soon learn the limitations of a patent agent. You should speak with HR or hiring managers at biotech firms to get a better feel for whether in the long range you would be limiting yourself too much by not going to law school.
I dont think that your age will be much of a factor. Many people your age decide to leave research and go to law school or otherwise change careers. However, I do hope that your post is not representative of your writing ability. You need to be able to use correct spelling and grammar in any field of law, and especially in patent law, where incorrect grammar can make a patent invalid or can fail to cover essential material.</p>
<p>hello,my name is Karen I want to study private property, I am planning to go to France but I am not sure about what School of law, do you know wich is the best french school of law? Any information would be helpful.</p>
<p>Thanks in advance.</p>
<p>Karen C.</p>
<p>Sorry, don’t know anything about French law schools. you should post the question on the law school board to have more people possibly answer.</p>
<p>As far as making myself more marketable after graduation from law school, I presume you mean doing good in law school and doing your best to get on Law Review would be the ways that carry the most weight.</p>
<p>Are there other things that such places as intellectual property boutiques (I believe they are called?) look for in a person not coming from a t14 school. I want to do it, but I want to do it right this time; not looking back and thinking about all the things I ‘could have, should have’ done.</p>
<p>I am also wondering about what I would need to achieve to be able to increase my chances the greatest in order to get into an IP boutique firm where I could receive practical training from the best in the field, and of course making the generous salary.</p>
<p>Samuel01: Here are a few thoughts.
- If you plan to seek employment in the Cincinnatti area, check with some IP firms there for their opinions on UC law school. Ask them if they give high value to any other law schools in the area. You should think of applying to multiple schooks if possible (the economy has greatly increased the number of students applying to law school but there has been no increase in the size of entering classes).</p>
<ol>
<li><p>If you are not set on the Cincinnati area, try to pick a region where you would like to live and ask the same question of IP firms there. It may be that, while convenient, going to UC law school may not be advantageous if you want to move to another part of the country where the quality of its education and graduates may be unknown. That’s if you want to move shortly after vgraduation. If, on the other hand, you plan to stay in the area for a while, eventually the particular law school you attended will be less important and the nature and quality of your work exerience will be more important.</p></li>
<li><p>If you would like to work in a particular technology, consider taking a course or two in the field when you have time and also trying to join the professional society in that field. Any indication of extra efforts would be a plus in your marketability.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>hi dadofsam, thanks for the informative post!</p>
<p>I’m a sophomore at University of Michigan in Chemical Engineering, and I’m looking to practice IP law in the future. I am a year ahead of my class and can graduate in 3 years, but I want to either get a masters degree or another BSE. </p>
<p>Right now, my options are applying to a sequential graduate undergraduate studies program offered here (whereby I would receive a BSE in Chemical Engineering and an MS in some similar type of engineering in 4 years; I’m looking at either Biomedical or Macromolecular Science, with a focus in biomaterials). My other option is to do a dual degree program in Chemical Engineering and Materials Science Engineering, so I would graduate with two BSEs (also in 4 years). </p>
<p>So I guess my question to you is, would depth or breadth of technical knowledge make me a more attractive candidate when looking for a job in IP law?</p>
<p>Dadofsam, thank you for doing this. The information you’ve shared so far have been very helpful.</p>
<p>The entry-level legal market is in shambles right now. A friend of mine who’s a 2L at Penn right now told me that only 1/3 of the class were able find SAs at OCI this year, a drop from almost 100% in years past. </p>
<p>Do you have any thoughts/observations on if IP firms were hit just as hard? I’m debating whether to attend law school next fall or defer a year. I plan on doing IP.</p>
<p>Princess: I’m not the “host” here but I have been in IP for 26+ years in NYC so I can kibitz too. For patent law, one must consider where, what technology, the lucrative inventions are coming from or have come from. You say you are thinking about getting another degree with your ChemE degree. ChemE is great and you can probably handle anything in chemistry, but if getting a chemistry degree is a possibility, consider it. There is a GREAT deal of litigation in generic drugs (a field I have worked in for 17 years), and a chemistry degree will make you very marketable in that field, not only in patent “boutiques” (I hate that term, it’s generally a term that BigLawFirms use to describe and put down smaller IP only firms, firms that they look to acquire), but in BigLawFirms that have patent departments. Litigation is the patent area from which you are most likely to get promoted because more money is made there to a law firm that in patent procurement. In the past, drug litigation focussed on patents covering drug formulations (tablet, capsule, timed release), or on methods of treatment (once a day with food). Now, generics are challenging the basic chemical patents themselves. So knowledge of the pertinent chemistry is needed to deal with the various issues that arise in a patent litigation involving a patent to the active itself.</p>
<p>Daniel: The patent law field has not been immune from the slow economy. Even large companies are complaining about bills from lawyers and are hesitant to start new expensive litigations. More thought is also given before spending money on new patent applications, and clients are routinely abandonning applications already filed if the technology is no longer too interesting so that patent prosecution costs are reduced. Many law firms, including patent firms, have been holding off on hiring new people and some have started trimming their ranks. Some law firms have told their September 2009 starters to show up in January 2011. However, things should be different in a year or two when you graduate. If not, I’ll be looking for a job.</p>
<p>first of all, this is an AMAZING thread, many thanks to dadofsam and every poster.</p>
<p>i’m finishing a degree in Electrical Engineering with a minor in business right now, and am pretty comfortable with my school’s ranking and current GPA. A legal career in IP definitely sounds like a viable path to take. Having read all the postings, I have a few lingering questions about the career development path of a patent attorney. Right now my feeling is that (correct me if i’m wrong) one will just keep working on case after case, and then somewhere down the road will “partner” with clients to ease and focus the workload. And it seems a lawyer will be working with mostly stacks of convoluted documents and meeting with clients. The aspects of working with frontier technology and defending property rights sound very attractive to me, so my questions are,</p>
<ol>
<li>What do you love about your job? Personal opinions are 100% acceptable</li>
<li>What do you hate about your job? Personal opinions are 100% acceptable</li>
<li>What would the career pathway be for a patent attorney? Such as “climbing the corporate ladder” in the business world? If so, how would one fulfill the sequence of evolution?</li>
</ol>
<p>Much appreciated!
-J</p>
<p>Princessjess: The simple answer (simple for me, anyway) is that the more qualifications you have, the more attractive you are to an employer (any employer, actually). I dont know the details of the programs you mention so I cant suggest why, or whether, one would be better than the other. My guess is that a B.S/M.S. approach will give you the broadest and deepest scope of technology and make you most attractive to an employer, but its your time and your (or your parents) money, so that a dual B.S would be more efficient (and you could always take an M.S. later).</p>
<p>Daniel: IP firms, both larger and smaller, are having the same difficulties as other firms due to the economy. OCI in general has plummeted and summer associate classes at IP and other firms have been dramatically reduced. It’s impossible to say what may be the situation in three or four years when you will have graduated. The economy ought to have improved much by then, but that doesnt mean that law firms will try to duplicate the size they were just a year or two ago. My crystal ball isnt much help here, Im afraid.</p>
<p>ConCerndDad: kibitzing is in my blood too. Youre qualified to offer an opinion here (even though you havent been in the field quite as long as I have, LOL). My problem, when I started this post, was that too many people with no apparent experience were shooting from the hip with opinions based on thin air (or hot air). Welcome to the CC forums.</p>
<p>Princessjess: If you do go into IP (not a foregone conclusion by any means) you may have the opportunity to decide between prosecution and litigation (it depends on where you find employment). But I would choose my major on what area of science interests me, not on what might be best for future employment. I have worked with both chemists and chemical engineers, and they tend to view the world differently. Go with what interests you. Even in chemical engineering youll usually get enough chemistry to be able to handle pharmaceutical litigation, if thats what you want to be doing.</p>
<p>Drive: What I love about my job: the pay check, the vacations, and going home to my family; then writing briefs. What I hate about my job: dealing with obnoxious, rude and nasty opposing counsel and the drivel they say and write. Optimal career path: start in a law firm. Do patent prosecution for at least 3 years, mixed with litigation if possible. If you like litigation, do more. If you like prosecution, do more. Make and keep friends in law school. Keep acquainted with college friends. They may become future clients. If you can do licensing work, do it also. Corporations want well rounded attorneys, unless you go strictly into their prosecution basket. If you are well rounded, you can eventually go to a corporation if you tire of law firm practice, though the pay there is usually substantially lower.</p>
<p>Although patent prosecutors are certainly always needed and get paid fairly well, frankly I do not consider them lawyers. They are good technical writers and write good technical arguments to get patent claims allowed, but these are tasks that a non-lawyer patent agent can do (and there are many non-lawyer patent agents). Most seasoned (10+ years) attorneys who do only patent prosecution have virtually no memory of the law, such as the rules of evidence. They don’t need such things. Law school almost seems to be surplusage. – Actually, a law degree is required of patent prosecutors so that they can be listed on the law firm’s letterhead among the lawyers.</p>
<p>Dear ConcerndDad: Well, you sound just like a typical super-arrogant litigator. Probably in your firm patent attorneys are limited by a poorly designed policy to just write patent applications, and do nothing else. Too bad for all those in such a situation; good training is being wasted. Even when I was in law firms I also wrote and issued opinions on patent validity and infringement, both of which require a law school education and enough knowledge of the rules of evidence to write a well-reasoned opinion.</p>
<p>And as an in-house coumsel, where I spent 3/4 of my career, I also handled trademark matters, trade secret issues, licensing and other agreements, copyright isues and employment questions having to do with IP rights, all of which require a legal education. Lots of in-house counsels do such work. Some even move up from being IP counsels to general counsel positions.</p>
<p>Sammy’s Dad:</p>
<p>There is no reason to insult me and my firm (“you sound just like a typical super-arrogant litigator. Probably in your firm patent attorneys are limited by a poorly designed policy to just write patent applications, and do nothing else.”). I thought that such attacks were improper in this website. Sorry to have entered your realm and provided opinions.</p>
<p>I am sure you know that there are patent attorneys who ONLY handle patent prosecution, usually by choice since it is less stressful and more predictable than other tasks. That is whom my comment was directed to. Maybe you are one of those. Oh, well. However, you cannot disagree that if one is only handling patent prosecution, there is no need to know anything about all of the law that you learned in law school.</p>
<p>As to opinion work on patent infringement and validity, well that is not patent prosection, which is where my comment was directed to. It’s easy to change the point and then shoot it down, as you did. Politicians and litigation attorneys do that all the time.</p>
<p>All I was saying is that if one is only interested in writing patent applications and dealing with the patent office, one can have a very successful career (in private practice and in corporations) without spending $150,000 in law school tuition and lose the $300,000+ in lost wages over those 3 years.</p>