The states usually have some sort of elderly affairs web site that clarifies how POA, durable POA or legal guardianship work there. You may need to scout out a few AL choices. There can be differences.
Esobay’s post says what we all, I think, feel. That there’s a point where we may not have the control we feel is best. We worry, we have to run through hoops because they’re reluctant, we face anger or indignation. Getting the ducks in a row, even more or less, can help us.
Even we had trouble knowing when MIL was slipping into dementia because of her social skills. There are mini and more extensive mental awareness tests that can be done.
Thank you! I didn’t know about the state having this information in one place - - I’m off to research that. It’s at least something I can do. And I need to start looking for find suitable assisted living possibilities.
I agree that getting things organized can make you feel a little better even when things are actually totally out of control. Which they really are.
It sounds like you’ve really faced the same situation. We actually have tried to get MIL evaluated, and she refuses to participate in any kind of evaluation. Surprise, surprise. We haven’t really pushed it hard though.
It just seems so easy when things kind of settle down to forget how bad it is when they aren’t settled . . .but I think we need to make more of a concerted effort to do the research, talk to the resources, and get a plan in place.
The anger part is just the worst. It is so hurtful to my husband. I had a harder upbringing emotionally and am better at stealing myself against that stuff . . .
@amarylandmom,
A good competency eval should pick up on the impairment in judgment, reasoning, problem-solving, memory (new memory retention and retrieval) ability to handle ADLs (activities of daily living), etc. They are (at least good ones) are more in depth than an interview and brief mental status exam. We used to see the opposite-- family members would think their older relative was pretty ok, and the assessment would show profound impairment.
Amarylandmom, we didn’t tell her she was being evaluated. We had something larger than the mini mental assessment (MMA) done, where she was living (her home.) We told her it was a social visit, a nice lady we thought she’d like. As jym notes, it pointed out more than we realized.
Lots of reasons some elderly don’t want to move. Sometimes, it’s that they see it as giving up. Or they remember old tales of someone they knew being warehoused. Sometimes, we can’t sell it on the “you need this” basis. We need to focus on something else about it, something they would like.
The other option you may have seen on this thread is home help.
@amarylandmom , research is a good place to start. Re-reading your note, I forgot to address one KEY element …
you are trying to protect your DH and he is doing what he can for his parents, and venting to you.
You are not alone in THAT either, although I am on the other side of it. After helping move literally TONS of stuff (3 tons by weight to dump for example…) my DH had to step back. He and I had a few arguments that were caused by my venting and whining, but still doing whatever Mom I thought she needed. (BIG ASIDE; I was doing what i THOUGHT Mom needed at the time, over time I accepted that Mom needed less of my life and she didn’t want it anyway) Now I don’t whine (too much) to DH. He doesn’t offer advice and doesn’t either help or hinder. For example, I will drive to go visit her 400 miles 1 way. It would be nice to have him with me, but he will never go up again until her funeral. He points out when I go up too often (don’t do that anymore, I go as often as I can live with, taking into consideration both HIS and HER needs). Without him, yes, I’d go more often, but honestly, it isn’t necessary.
So the little other advice I would offer is for you to let your DH vent, offer support such as research, but then give up control of HIM, TOO! If he is in danger of burning out, tell him that once. When he needs to vent, assure him that he IS doing all he can and it is OK to do less. Tell him it is OK to have a life not devoted to trying to help people who do not want you help.
That is the gist of “doing what you can live with”. I just recently gave up calling my mom every day, because she can no longer talk on the phone. I check with the aides and nurses but no longer attempt to get a sense of how Mom is so that I can TELL the nurses it is time for a UTI check (yes, I used to be able to diagnose her by phone better than the AL place in person). Now I can’t do that, so nature will take its course. Took three years to arrive here.
My in laws stayed in their own home too long, even with an in home caregiver 5 days a week. He had lost way more executive function than we realized! He is not remembering things, making poor decisions etc.
MIL broke her hip, surgery, rehab, etc month 1
It took a few weeks, but we explained she could never come home again, needs too much care
We fought daily & got FIL to move to the home month 2
We did an estate sale and renovated the home to rent it month 3
month 3-4-5-6 he is still angry
Month 4 he called the police to arrest DH for stealing his car
but by month 6, he signed the pink slip to sell it
Month 4-5-6 all sorts of medications, all sorts of health issues
Month 5 he got fired from the AL PCP doctor for being two argumentative and hostile
There is no way he could track this medical stuff
He was not capable of making the decisions to run his life, but does not realise his short term memory issues
A family member who is a doctor says that MIL sounds competent in 15 minute medical visits or phone calls, I understand that issue
I say find any way you can to get them released from the hospital to AL
Ask the docs to help you get them into AL to try it
A friend did that with her Mom & Mom loved it
Yes, those months will be a fight, but it’s a fight toward a new plac
FIL still blames us for the move, we remind him he signed the forms
AL people can try to help you!
And, yes, my DH & his brother want to please their parents, too. But my DH always argues back and BIL always gives in (in the moment, not in the big picture) It’s hard for boys who want to make their Dad’s proud & to please their Dads, to realize it may not happen, ever!
Also, if it works out that they go home, that is not necessarily a bad thing. If my in laws were at home and something bad happened and MIL died there, but it could have been prevented, so what. She would have died happier than the last 5 months in SNF & board & care! So, whatever, if it makes them happy and they can be safe enough not to harm others or be scammed, fine, they can live that way.
@jym626, soooo interesting. I think that is what could happen with my father-in-law. On the surface, he seems like the better of the two, but honestly, he says and does things that make me think perhaps not.
@lookingforward, I’ll be honest, I think any home help they might get would either quit in a week, or they would “fire” them in a week. My father in law can be very nice and then say something completely racist. We don’t hear things my mother in law says, but after a hospital visit, the staff say things like"your mother says inappropriate things. they were about me.". UGH. Seriously, I just can’t fathom how they could have in home help. Not sure AL will enjoy them either, but I think they will at least be more prepared for it. These folks were kinda difficult when they were normal. It’s not improving.
@esobay, I appreciate your great wisdom. Yesterday, both parents departed the hospital. We took them home and then spent (I kid you not) 2 hours organizing ONE week of pills into these super easy to follow pill containers that say Sunday Breakfast, Sunday Lunch, Sunday Evening ,Sunday Bed, and then repeat for each day of the week. They must collectively have 24 prescriptions. We did all this and I marked one all over with his name and one all over with her name. My MIL, the one with the dementia, actually seemed to understand how it worked, but my FIL, the supposedly coherent one, literally just kept staring at the box and couldn’t seem to identify what to open and then asked me to mark the dates on each one (which didn’t help). I think they could seriously just take each other’s medicine or goodness knows what. I’ve never seen so many pills in my life. Let’s just say my husband and I both have masters degrees so how they can send older people home with these scripts and expect them to take them properly is a mystery to me. Personally, I’ve told my kids that after I’m 78, I’m not taking any further medication and whatever happens happens . . .but my husband seems determined to do what he’s going to do, so I agree - - I will support with research and moral support and an extra pair of hands, but I guess it is for him and his brothers to really make things happen one way or the other.
@somemom, oh my gosh, I see my future before my eyes in your post. Your poor husband. I know you are right about boys wanting to please their dad - - and it’s not helping when he swears at my husband and tells him he’s “no good”. And seriously, I think my husband is a very dutiful person, if perhaps not the most affectionate type. He’s just trying to help them.
Your last paragraph totally speaks to me, but I know that my husband just won’t let that happen. The opportunities have been there, and he just sends them right to the hospital. My concern is that my MIL would settle into an assisted living facility much more readily if my FIL was there, but if he dies, and leaves her, there’s no way she can live unattended in an apartment. None. So then, she’d have to go to a strange place by herself, and I think that’s just a fiasco. The whole thing is just a big mess, and I’m the type of person who likes to get things organized and fixed, but maybe there is just no fixing it.
amarylandmom, I’m sorry for what you’re going through.
I found that with my dad and stepmother (in their late 80s and early 90s when I was supervising their care), they lost a lot of ground being away from home. It didn’t return to whatever was the current version of “normal,” but it came close after a week or so.
As for home aides, they have seen and heard it all. My dad really needed help more for my stepmother than for himself, but he hated the idea of aides. But he very quickly realized how helpful the aides were and before long he even enjoyed their company.
My dad and stepmother had no social life at all during the last 4 or 5 years but I don’t think they would have gotten anything from living with a social group. It was all they could handle to live. Sure it was sad but it was what it was.
I agree with oldmom. The neuro told us that every hospitalization takes a bit more out of an elderly person. It becomes harder and harder to bounce back; there is a new normal each time.
My FIL decided to move into AL while MIL was in rehab from a stroke. She quickly came to the conclusion that it was better than the rehab place. 3 years later, she is happy they moved there (she’d said that the only way she’d leave their condo was feet first). They do nothing but sit in the apt and go to the DR for meals. FIL should have his pills administered by the nurse, but refuses. It is just about the only thing he can control these days. As a result, he has hand written spreadsheets and we worry about him taking a double dose or nothing at all. He will hide and take nitro pills because he doesn’t want to call the nurse or 911.
The neuro suggested reducing Meds. No vitamins, stop the calcium inhaler thing, no glimiperide. As time goes on we can think about which pills have benefit and which are not worth the hassle. Mom developed type 2 diabetes after she had cancer. Not overweight and not into sugar or alcohol. It’s finally moderated with stable blood sugar and she decided dessert was better than pills. The aides know the signs if her blood sugar spikes. So far, so good, and one less thing to worry about.
@amarylandmom prayers and God’s graces for you and your H as you try to guide his parents into the right care setting. Do not let them transfer to home. Get all the resources and people lined up to move them to where it is appropriate for them. Have all the family back you up 100%. Maybe even lie (if there is so much resistance) to say it is temporary until they get stronger.
Tough love is truly caring for them by having them be where they get the right oversight and care.
Hopefully can get necessary evaluations during their hospitalizations.
There is a med dispensing thing that has a timer in the closed/locked case so can only take meds when the door can open with the right time (it can be loaded for multiple days, depending). However if both have meds, is one going to be able to make sure each takes from their own med dispenser?
Is there elder services (like ombudsman) to help guide you?
My mother covered her dementia for years. She was a great ‘actress’ and could follow the social cues. Looking back we could see her mental deterioration and how she covered.
Non-compliance and the consequences. Medical deterioration and denial. So sorry.
Dealing with cleaning out 95 yr old deceased FIL home, the hoarding is getting to us. Oh my. ‘Really?’ Is spoken by me or H every hour at least when we come accross some more boxes or closet. This is ridiculous. Ok enough ranting , back to closets. We have been here 2 weeks doing paper work and the home. H finally agreed to estate sale people. Stages of grief come to mind. Except the bargaining is not there. Just mentioning this since I am positive others are going to deal with the same. We had to take our puppy with us who has been surprisingly good considering. She has been a great distraction for fresh air and always wanting to help ‘carry things off or destroy them’ without even learning this command. Imagine that .
Oh, @rockymtnhigh, we should compare notes. Every greeting card ever received. But not all in one place, stashed in countless places. Like in a shoe box on top of the duct work in the basement, next to the ice picks, of course. Or next to the empty glass jars, or with the stack of National Geographics, or with the carafes from all the broken coffee makers. Or stacked on top of the life insurance policy information. You can’t just go through and pitch.
Unlike some of the other posters, though, we have not found stashes of money or jewelry, and don’t expect to.
We found a gold ring band from 1913 engraved with H’s grandmothers name in a pill bottle in a cereal box with other pill bottles that contained rubber bands and toothpicks in the master closet next to the barrel of uncracked pecans. We know there is a baggie of $3000 but never found it.
The papers are as momofJandL described. ‘Really’?
Amarymom, my parents are at a continuing care facility and I am blessed they agreed to go while relatively healthy. They both have dementia but it seems to have slowed down with regular meals and very few tasks they need to worry about. It’s a world they can manage in order to stay at their independent living apartment. With them and my in-laws, I found siblings agreeing on a plan and presenting the plan with a united front. For both in-laws and my parents, it required a sibling to travel so everyone can be together and be a support for each other and the parents.
^ people don’t understand when I say that mom’s houseful of stuff needs to be gone through piece by piece. You guys get it. I’m sitting here nodding my head up and down reading about the ring in the pill bottle in the cereal box with rubber bands and toothpicks. The problem at my mom’s is checks, investment and bank account records, social security and pension statements, and small amounts of cash mixed in with thousands of sweepstakes entries, piles of junk mail, church bulletins and private committee info, foils from valentine chocolates, styrofoam meat trays, yogurt containers, cards from friends, newspapers, magazines, recipes, etc. it is truly overwhelming and lost it’s “satisfaction” value after filling dumpsters multiple times, barely making a dent. You all have my sympathy as you deal with cleaning out a lifetime of indiscriminately saved items. We still have a long way to go.
My youngest sister and I have been going through stuff at my dad’s house for several years now, starting before my mom died. We are trying to get the stuff that has sentimental value organized and the crp out the door. My dad is very resistant, but then later acknowledges that we are doing the right thing. Noone is going to be able to move down there for a couple of months and toss everything, so the more we can do now, the better. Of course, every time I go down there Dad has added to the crp in the house, but the important stuff is now downstairs, where he seldom goes, so it isn’t getting buried by the new arrivals.
Mom and Dad did get the financial stuff, such as it is, organized before her passing. She was bedridden for ten years, but still was totally competent, so they took care of the medical directives, locating documents, etc. She was never able to get my dad to learn how she kept the books and wrote the checks, but he picked up on it quickly after she passed. She was really organized about that stuff, so there was very little angst about that piece of the process…
My grandmother kept her important papers in the oven. Her good jewelry was lost because we think she kept it in a coat pocket or shoe box that was probably given or thrown a way.
@psychmomma, we also found the meat trays, used tin foil, plastic bags, paper bags from the pharmacy, etc. in my aunt’s dishwasher and oven. I remember trying to take a used sponge out of her hand to discard and she was holding on to it for dear life. I went through 2 shredders, trying to discard tax returns from the 1950’s, found travelers checks from 1960’s, bonds listed in my grandmother’s name, (dead since 1980), and on and on and on. Plus the lien on the house for unpaid taxes, income taxes not paid in 6 years, (“I’m 95 years old, I don’t have to file them, the hell with the government, let them lock me up”), dividend checks not cashed that were several years old, stocks that went into unclaimed funds with the state because “who told them to sell the company and charge me a broker fee, I’m not paying”, no will, no POA, no beneficiaries on policies, and that list goes on and on and on.
