Parents editing college student's papers

@roycroftmom lol. You haven’t “really” read a word I’ve written. It’s all good. Our kids with both be fine. Mine will be out of pull-ups by Junior year.

@“Snowball City” It’s not that I’m brushing off what you say. And it’s not that it would be a big deal to not read a paper from kid (if, please, they would ever ask me to read another one. I promise, I won’t ask so many annoying questions about the source material and if you went back to make sure you understood what Marx was trying to get to when he talks about exchange-value and use-value. I promise!!) I simply don’t believe in lowering the bar unecessarily simply due to inequities. There are huge, huge, huge, inexcapable inequities in higher ed. As I mentioned, it’s kind of a family business. I grew up with stacks of papers around the house, around my uncle’s house, around my grandma’s house… I very well know what 1st gen, ESL and other students are up against.

I simply don’t believe that (when allowed by the school/Prof) me refusing to engage in a discussion of my kid’s paper has any noticable or important effect, positive or negative, on educationally disadvantaged kids at their school. I maybe shouldn’t have sent the piano, but… Seriously though, I do lots of things for my kid that are way, way, way more “unequal” - starting with the schooling/attention/interaction they got when they were born.

I know that’s not a position you like - and I get it. Your position is perfectly valid for you. But I’m not really convinced why (if I ever have the chance again - kid, if you’re reading this, send a poem, hiaku, anything!) I would lessen my interaction with my kid when I don’t think it will have any meaningful affect on the population you reference.

So, the size of the advantage given DOES matter to you. Since it is your perception that it is relatively minor, then it seems to be okay.

@doschicos I think that’s to me. Of course I think it’s ok. Even if I thought the advantage was big, as long as it’s not disallowed, I would do it. If I felt it was proper or correct or even desirable to not give my kid an advantage (and more as a human being than specific education advantage, although I think the are interconnected), I’d have saved a whole lot of money and time running to sporting events, science fairs, paying summer camp tuition, coding camp tuition, buying laptops and servos, and engine kits, and music lessons and tutoring and art lessons and crayons and trips here there and everywhere. Swimming lessons and backpacking trips and days at the beach and making them get jobs even if we didn’t need the money…

Nearly EVERYTHING I’ve done with my kids has been to give them an advantage: whether physical, emotional, experiential, educational or hopefully all of the above and more.

I can’t imagine most of us haven’t done all they can to give their kid what they perceive as the best preparation or advantage.

Are you suggesting I should have provided less opportunities for my kids to keep the playing field level?

We all wish to provide for our children to the best of our ability. But you and I differ in what type of assistance is unethical. I am sure some parents pay outright for term papers. And some write the papers themselves. And some provide only brainstorming, while others only edit. It is really a matter of where we draw the line in providing for our children. As you seem quite content with the level of support you provided, I assume your son was forthright with his professors in acknowledging it and attended a college permitting it.

What I do think is many colleges do want to level the playing field once kids are at college, if they can. Frankly, it has been eyeopening to me how many parents do seem to provided continued academic support to their adult aged college students. Who knows, maybe it is a CC parent thing. I never would have guessed it was so widespread as I stopped doing it back in middle school.

I do think it is an unfair advantage and an unfair playing field and the cynic in me does question how much is driven by grades as opposed to wanting students to be better writers. If the goal is the latter, plenty of on campus resources to use. :slight_smile:

And I still call home to ask my dad for help with tough engineering problems. :wink:

Correct me if I am wrong, @MaineLonghorn, but your father was a highly regarded engineering professor at a top-notch university. I think that puts him into a different category than a normal dad. He’s an expert. Plus, we’ll forgive you now because you aren’t getting graded on it nor bound by any honor codes. :wink:

More important than your opinion, @CaliDad2020, as to the appropriateness of the support you provided, is the instructor’s. Did he or she realize what you were doing or did the instructor assume the work was all the student’s? Failing to clarify that was a deliberate sin of omission in my book. I don’t think many college professors would be happy about this level of parental involvement in their assignments. You already graduated. Stop stealing the kids’ turn.

Thank you, @doschicos. :slight_smile:

I think I will ask Dad about his opinion on the subject.

@doschicos btw, I think you’re confusing two points. When I mentioned the size of the advantage of proofreading/suggestions it was in the context of @“Snowball City” and the discussion of 1st gen and other students who might lack academic resources/support. My point was in my experience it was not that big an issue to those students, in comparrison to other, much more obvious advantages that some students (like mine, frankly) have.

@roycroftmom I’ve already written at least 3 times in this thread that the college code of conduct explicitly allows the suggestions of the sort that I gave and explicitely permits proofreading. (anyone know of a course that requires you to turn off spellcheck and grammarly?) You are allowed to find it unethical. It’s ok. I find the level of tsk-tsking kind of funny. I feel like I’m back in Switzerland when I used to wake up at 6 am on a Saturday to my neighbor birchbrooming as loudly as she could, to “sublty” let me know it was time to sweep my sidewalk!

Anyway, I have a funny feeling all our kids will survive. Have a great weekend!

@ CaliDad Man, in your area it sounds like it is an arms race for getting your kids into college. Our summers were riding bikes and horses, visits to relatives, fishing at the cabin etc. One kid did want to do a 6 week program and it was free, she was accepted and went but if not she would have been hanging out at the library. The sporty kid had no extra coaching. There is no where within an hour drive to do ACT prep so it wasn’t even on anyone’s radar.

I don’t look at their college careers as a return on an earlier investment.

They were happy kids in Leave it to Beaver land.
My community values education but education for all. There is strong support for special ed, ESL, and low income students. Volunteers are present in the school working with kids and tutoring. The organization that I volunteer for accepts all first gen, low income, and or minority students age 6th grade and up and it is funded privately and from grants. They get tutoring help, class and college counseling, career and apprenticeship advice, information on summer academic programs, college visits to local colleges, etc. Our drop out rate has significantly decreased.

There is a robust community fund so that if a kid wants to do a sport that is outside the school system (such as summer soccer) no one is turned away and parents drive kids whose parents have to work. My community functions on the concept that we all succeed together.

So yeah, my core values say that my kids don’t need another thumb on the scale. And we don’t look for loopholes that will give them one. That would be an Eddie Haskell move.

@MaineLonghorn I’d be very interested to hear your father’s opinion based on his lifelong career in academia. I would imagine that many older profs would be dismayed by the whirring going on these days but maybe I am wrong.

@CaliDad2020 No, I got your point. You are justifying it is ok because it is small potatoes in your view compared to other advantages. I just don’t buy the argument that small advantages are okay because they are smaller.

I’m picking up that there is something about it being the parent that makes this seem unethical to others. I don’t get that. Assuming proof-reading/discussion of a paper is allowed, to me it doesn’t matter who does the proof-reading/discussion: parent, friend, boy/girlfriend or tutor. As long as it stays within a permissible range, it’s ok. The actor is irrelevant. Only the action is relevant. If a 1st gen student has a friend who edits so much that they become a co-writer effectively or tells them the critical arguments to use then that friend has over-stepped into unauthorized collaboration no less than a parent who does that for a child.

BTW, I’ll have to poll my friends. I’m guessing proof-reading or editing a college kid’s paper is fairly common. I don’t know anyone who didn’t do that for their kids in high school on and off. “Mom/dad, can you look this over before I turn it in?” That’s a conversation I’ve heard many an evening when over a friend’s house for dinner and in my own house too.

@doschicos for the record, though I’ve noted this before a number of times:

My father, 2 uncles and grandmother were humanities profs. My uncle chairman of a graduate and undergraduate department at a “top 20” university for years.

The “honor code” at the school in question expressly encourages and permits (and allows non-crediting) for genereal discussion with others of an assignement and proofreading. The writing, of course, must be the student’s own.

I’m confused by why, if a school goes to the trouble to put in its own guidelines that discussion and proofreading is permitted, why anyone would have an ethical problem with it.

I guess I just don’t get it.

.

FWIW, I went and looked for the precise wording in the honor code at Muhlenberg College, where my D17 will be starting this August. There is one prohibited action germane to this discussion; to quote (formatting changed to fit this medium):

Interesting that parental involvement isn’t addressed—however, by providing students working together as a possible exception with permission, that would imply that other sorts of working together, including with parents, are excluded (in the same way a traffic law saying “Being on the sidewalk is only allowed if you’re a pedestrian” means that bicycles aren’t allowed on sidewalks, even though they aren’t explicitly mentioned).

There’s a FAQ section that clarifies (for, as you will see, certain definitions of “clarifies”) this as follows:

Basically, if you have a question, don’t just assume, but talk to your professor. Kind of a shocking idea, eh?

Finally, not as germane but interesting:

@dftbdftb Muhlenberg! always puts me in mind of one of my favorite John Prine songs…

As mentioned, there is a wide range out there of codes of conduct. Here I have quote some of those that allow/encourage/don’t expressly prohibit a wider range of discussion in regard papers.

It’s funny, I’ve been thinking about this disconnect a lot and I think that much of my attitude was shaped by my uncle, Grandma and Dad, all of whom were mostly about getting the best, clearest, widest ranging takes on the information you could and reworking it until you run out of energy or time. I think it is also coloured by my own academic career, particularly the amount of time I spend in the world of post-grad writing instruction. There collaboration is often required (in workshops - often to the writers’ horror and dismay) and a round-table of cohorts will sit and discuss and sometimes line-edit your work while you cringe and rage at their interference/poor revisions. Outside input is also encouraged, if not demanded. Readings with audience response is sometimes part of the curriculum. Much of it is geared toward hearing other’s reactions to your writing.

Anyway, here are a few places that are relatively more receptive to discussion/collaboration/proofreading.

Harvard: “…however, students need not acknowledge discussion with others of general approaches to the assignment or assistance with proofreading. If the syllabus or website does not include a policy on collaboration, students may assume that collaboration in the completion of assignments is permitted. Collaboration in the completion of examinations is always prohibited.”

University of Kent: “Coursework often requires some background research and evaluation of material. It is often helpful to discuss with others the value of particular sources and sharing and discussion of information sources is acceptable and often useful.
In producing a piece of work you should work individually and should determine for yourself whether to include or preclude a particular source of information. There is no problem in discussing grammatical or syntactic problems in your work or points that you discover you have not completely understood.”

University of Scranton: “C. Collusion: Ordinary consultation of faculty, library staff, tutors or others is legitimate unless the instructor has imposed stricter limits for a particular assignment. Any cooperative effort is forbidden which results in the work or ideas of others being presented as one’s own.”

USD: “Unauthorized Collaboration. Collaboration by a student engaged in the exercise with any other person, whether engaged in the exercise or not, if the supervisor of an academic matter has stated that collaboration is not permitted;”

Monash: expressly permitted proofreading/editing: “Proofreading: The process of identifying errors and suggesting corrections to a text. This must not involve rewriting passages of text in order to clarify meaning; amending the words used by the author (except to identify the correct spelling of the word used); rearranging passages of text or code, or reformatting other material; contributing additional material to the original; and checking calculations or formulae.”

And again, to this specific question: UVA President Sullivan:

Q: For three years in college, my father proofread and edited my papers. I never thought of this as cheating, and highly doubt that he did. What do you think?

A: I think it depends on the professor. In my own classes, I say to students: “It is fine with me if you consult with librarians, or writing tutors, or others, people who edit your work or give you suggestions about your writing. I don’t have a problem with that. But, the ideas and the final expression of those ideas must be your own.” So at least in my class, that would not have been cheating. But one of the things that’s really important is that professors do have to explain what their expectations are to the students. A problem we see pretty often happens in engineering classes, where the students have been divided up into work groups to do the work all through the semester, and then you get to the final exam, and the professor understands that’s to be independent work, but the students understand that they can still work with their groups. And so those conflicting assumptions need to get aired and addressed. And we try to actually spend time training the faculty as well as the students about the honor code, so the faculty know they have a serious responsibility to explain to students what they consider to be dishonest in this class.

And lastly, an interesting article on a situation at Stanford by the parent of a student: https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/05/28/why-colleges-should-ditch-honor-codes/

so… discuss amongst yourselves.

GroupMe is apparently Cheating Central for high school. According to D18, that’s where students post information on the test they just took so that later classes can benefit, discuss answers to homework, etc.

Of course, our little snowflake would never engage in that sort of activity. All I say to her is that I would rather her make an honest C than a dishonest A.

And college! A professor uploaded a solution set early and as soon as someone noticed the immediate suggestion was to download it before it was taken down. Someone else countered by suggesting to take screenshots, since the professor can probably see who downloads files from the course page.

I was too scared to even click anything else on the page in case I opened the file by accident.

Based on this thread I’m afraid I agree with the Post article-colleges need to rely solely on proctored in class assessments for evaluating student performance. There’s no way of knowing whose work is being turned in otherwise. Maybe papers can be just a completion grade.
Given for example Calidad’s highly academic relatives, every paper could have been a perfect tome worthy of publication. As both spell check and grammar check are widely available I have to believe more than proofreading assistance is being provided by parents or others, and Yes, I do have a problem with that. The kids in my child’s class shouldn’t be competing with me academically.

Spell and grammar check are both a help and a hinderance. We all know how they autocorrect things incorrectly. Because of these tools you need to proofread even more carefully.

In my daughter’s advanced writing class in college, they were encouraged to have others proofread their papers (in this case peer review was pretty poor - many times her assigned peer reviewer classmate provided no viable input or incorrect advice). The professor required a “thank-you” page where you would acknowledge and thank those who helped you in this way. I liked the “Thanks to my mother for doing the final proofread of this paper.”