Parents editing college student's papers

[liska21]

I want to circle back to the argument that allowing parental proof-reading* puts 1st generation students or students from from parents with lower educational backgrounds at a disadvantage. First off, I agree with this. However, I think that rules such as I think it was UT-Dallas that allow no outside input on papers are far more disadvantageous. In fact, I consider those to be almost immoral in regards to the extent that they give an advantage to those kids from higher socio-educational groups. I agree with CaliDad that the solution is not to prohibit proof-reading by others, but rather to give the same resources to others and, in freshman classes, require that it be used. I think that CaliDad hit on one of the big advantages of the parental** proof-reader: you can email and get comments back fairly quickly.

This discussion also makes me think the recent NYTimes article
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/10/opinion/how-i-learned-to-take-the-sat-like-a-rich-kid.html?_r=0

Re Middlebury: This college is one of the quintessential colleges of the wealthy. The median income is $244,300, and 76% come from the top 20 percent and 23%! come from the top 1%. Higher than all the ivies + S. Higher than the other elite LACs (Williams, Amherst, Bowdoin, Swarthmore, etc). Holding up their rules as models promoting equity feels hypocritical.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/college-mobility/middlebury-college

*See CaliDad’s caveats re what entails proof-reading

** To me, it is not important that it is “parent”. I didn’t have a parent proof-reader in college; I had something better, a roommate/best friend who was, and is, a great writer. And no I wasn’t breaking rules by having my papers proof-read by my roommate. A major paper for a class is proof-read. Period. End-stop. BTW, my kids are being taught the same thing in HS. They are upbraided by teachers if they turn in a paper that has not been proof-read. A few kids can proof-read their own papers successfully, but most cannot.

[CaliDad2020]

@kiddie That’s funny and reminded me of how often I’ve done the same. Over the years I’ve often consulted on kid-focussed projects quite often - companies making presentations, developing kid’s products, media presence etc. and asked to shape how they communicate.

I used to make my kids read/watch/go over a press-release, video presentation, power point, design etc. quite often. Now that I think of it, they had their hand on my bike a lot more than I have my hand on theirs! (I hope I get out of pullups before I’m in depends!)

[MaineLonghorn]

I asked a close friend, who is an instructor at a local college, what she thought. This woman is a stickler for honesty and integrity and speaks her mind (she makes me crazy sometimes). When I asked what she thought about parents looking at their kids’ papers and offering editing suggestions, she said, “No, there’s nothing wrong with that. I did it for my kids. Why wouldn’t I?”

On the other side of the coin, I proofread many,many papers that my mom typed for law students and authors. She’d pay me by the page. I started in third grade! Of course, I was just looking for typos, but it was good experience. I loved reading legal briefs.

[redpoodles]

I skipped pages 2-16 on this post but I want to weigh in.

If my kid has her paper finished early enough to ask me to read it and react (i.e., suggest ways to make it better, both in proofreading and in reacting to the content), I’ll read it and react. To me, this is actually a sign of a strong student. Chances are this student is also making use of the writing center and/or professor as is convenient (or would have if they’d been available).

So I have no problem with it, as long as there’s a complete draft and the student really has taken it as far as possible.

[doschicos]

" A few kids can proof-read their own papers successfully, but most cannot."

It is a skill that can be learned. Perhaps both schools and parents should focus their energies on teaching it. You know the whole “teach a person to fish blah, blah” analogy.

@MaineLonghorn Have you asked your dad, yet?

[Snowball_City]

Can I crowd source some editing/proofreading tips for the program? The bulk of the kids go to places such as Central Hooterville State and Green Acres Community College. Perhaps 40% have come up through ESL.

Mentioned earlier is keeping the thesis statement in view and checking that each paragraph supports it.

I read yesterday that for proofreading - change the font and print size to trick the brain.

Read your paper aloud.

Is there any recommended basic grammar book?

[mamabear232]

When I was a freshman in college, I had a wonderful professor who tore my papers to shreds. There was so much red ink on them, they looked like they had gone through combat. My pride was stung, I paid attention to his comments, internalized them, and the hemorrhage of red ink dramatically slowed. Few professors take the time that this requires and I am eternally grateful that he invested in his students’ success as much as he did.

As a teacher, I have tried to pay this forward. I provide extensive feedback on written assignments. I have advised students to seek out writing help wherever it is available - exchange papers with a peer, ask a friend or relative to read it over for clarity, seek out writing tutoring if it is available, read it out loud to see if it makes sense, and above all, print the paper out and proofread it by hand. Proofreading on screen is not nearly as effective. Try to absorb the advice given and apply it the next time.

I have learned a lot from this thread. I have always operated on the assumption that good writing is rewriting and the more eyes the better. It never occurred to me that basic copy-editing help (not substantial rewriting!) might violate standards of academic honesty at the college level. Lesson learned, always check the rules at the school one attends.

[Snowball_City]

@CaliDad2020 I understand that you enjoy and are good at explaining writing and thesis development.

Could this not be achieved by seeing the paper after it is submitted? Then the student can apply those concepts to the next piece of writing. It puts the onus back on the student to retain your instruction and implement the concepts.

[doschicos]

This is the classic:
https://www.amazon.com/Elements-Style-William-Strunk-Jr/dp/1557427283

One key to good writing and proofreading is to budget one’s time such that you can let a piece sit for a day and revisit with fresh eyes. It can also be helpful to physically print it out for some. Yes, to the out loud reading. I bet you can cull some good tips from visiting the websites of college writing centers.

[CaliDad2020]

@“Snowball City” of course it could, but in my experience (and I think that modern science bears this out) input is most effect “in the moment.” Frankly, despite best intentions, most students are “on to the next” assignment/course/internship/life event once they completel a course, and that’s understandable.

And I still think the profs input deserves primacy, so I would argue that pushing a student to deeper delving into his paper/topic/creative assignment before the prof does final review would give maximum value.

But this is really all academic at this point. One of the reasons my/friends kids don’t ask me to look at papers these days is because I make them do more work. I don’t do the work (save catching proofreading errors, but as my posts here reveal, I’m a pretty mediocre proofreader/copyeditor.) I point out places I think they have been superficial, lazy, or incorrect in their reading of source material. I do the same kind of “are you sure this says what you want it to” questioning I would do to any other student I might be helping. Question word choice. Encourage toward precision and accuracy. Make sure what is in their head is on the page. One of the biggest mistakes clever early writers make is they think it and it is obvious to them, and they assume others can fill in the jumps. A very common comment is “I’m dumb and don’t see how you got there.”

So sure, I can (and would be willing to) review writing at any stage. But the thing I don’t understand is why anyone would limit themselves to the less effective time of input. It makes no sense, unless it is not allowed by the school, course or professor - then you just don’t do it.

But I don’t think there is much upside in giving a student less input. They are there to learn. Their professors and TA’s and if they become professional writers, their cohorts and coworkers, will often have as people as they can read something before it is presented/published. I do mock presentations all the time. Members of the audience, who I trust, give me feedback. I don’t footnote them because the feedback does not rise to that level.

Does it not potentially infantalize our students more to pre-determine that a TA or Prof can assess the appropariate level of outside collaboartion and contribution, and what required acknowledging and what doesn’t, but a 19-20-21 year old college student can’t?

I dunno. Harvard has a pretty relazed standard. Princeton has a very strick standard. Many other schools fall in between. Even a quick glance at codes on syllabus show different profs have different standards.

My rule, if anyone ever asks me again, will be to look up the code and syllabus myself and make sure the student is aware of them. If they expressly prohibit outside or non-peer input, I won’t look at the paper. If the guidelines make it clear it’s ok, I’ll do it. That seems simple enough.

[AnAsmom]

This thread has been so fascinating to read. I’m really enjoying the fierce arguments from those that do and those that don’t believe in allowing parental collaboration. I do want to reiterate that when it is allowed I think it perfectly reasonable to help our kids by proofreading.
Lest I give the wrong impression here, we don’t provide writing help to our kids. They write, rewrite, edit, and ask us to scan the final product for any egregious errors(of which we have found a scant few). This happens rarely enough, one kid is a very talented writer and the other kid does not care enough.

And yes, it does seem like an unfair advantage to the first generation college students or those whose parents cannot help because of language disadvantages. However, it seems to me that rather than restricting who can help with the editing it is better to allow a broader group so that everyone can seek out the avenues that would best help them. Peer review and parental perspectives can cover the gamut of not helpful to very helpful.

Harking back to the long ago days, the professors at my grad school had us turn off all editing tools in Word when we typed all our papers. Thus, no computer proofreading allowed either. I wonder how many college students do that nowadays.

My ‘go to’ resource for grammar questions is Wren and Martin. We used it extensively in school and college. I have found a few copies in used bookstores here and have offered them to my kids who refused(they think the information distilled through Mom works better for them).

[Snowball_City]

It is all really interesting. I will say again that I think definitions are useful too.

@CaliDad2020 I was attempting to tease apart whether the student is more interested in improving the writing or in improving the grade.

I admire your passion for and commitment to effective writing and communication.

edited to add: I am off to lunch and then putting in the dock at Lake Wobegon.

[CountOlaf]

My mom has an English degree so I’m always thankful to have her to bounce ideas off of and for grammar checks and such. For those who don’t have parents/relatives/close friends with particular expertises, the great thing is there are places in school and on campus where help can be found.

And slightly off topic but no one is screaming foul that Steph Curry grew up in a house with NBA player/dad Dell Curry and undoubtedly had access to resources and help from dear old dad in perfecting his game. His dad certainly isnt playing the game for him and I’m sure these parents with particular Literary skills are not writing papers for their kids. Just a different perspective.

[sorghum]

And those first gen kids who sign up for intro language classes in their mother tongue, don’t you just hate that? They will get sky high GPA and all the good jobs.

[liska21]

" A few kids can proof-read their own papers successfully, but most cannot."

It is a skill that can be learned. Perhaps both schools and parents should focus their energies on teaching it. You know the whole “teach a person to fish blah, blah” analogy.

Kids coming from an ESL background are going have a hard time learning to proof-read well enough for a final, polished paper, IMO. For my kids, they can read something aloud and they can ‘hear’ if it is correct. They have had books read aloud to them and listened to books on tape from before they could talk. They had an in-house native speaker helping them with their grammar and spelling since they started school, in fact before that since their in-house native speakers were correcting their grammar from their first sentences. They have never been exposed to non-standard English to any significant degree. Sure youtube videos here and there and ESL friends, but minor exposure compared to their exposure to standard English.

To expect that an ESL kid or other kid not exposed to that much literature can learn to proof-read and edit their writing the way that my kids can is cruel, IMO. Sure, you’ll find exceptions, but those are the unusually gifted. I say teach students to write, rewrite and proof-read but also instill in them the importance of running their ideas by others and using proof-readers. The latter may be mandatory for their whole life—just like it is for many/most with dyslexia. If you leave them with this idea that having their written work proof-read and edited is cheating, you have handicapped them for life.

[doschicos]

"Kids coming from an ESL background are going have a hard time learning to proof-read well enough for a final, polished paper, IMO. "

I agree with this in some cases but these are also not the kids who will be getting help with parental editing then, either. And I actually know some ESL kids who are amazing writers! Better than my kids. They’re also brilliant all around. For those who can’t, another reason to use the resources on campus like the writing centers. The ESL kids are one group that is disadvantaged vs. those who have the privilege of getting parental assistance. One of the reasons I am opposed to it.

[prospect1]

One of my kids is a much better writer than me. I think if I sent my work writing to him, he’d be happy to help me with it. I guess I don’t see any problem returning the favor, if the shoe were on the other foot.

Depends on the situation in my book. If it’s something that falls in the category of cheating, I’d frown. If the help is purely to be constructive, and the paper is complete other than needing that final look-over, why not.

A lot of college kids (heck, people I work with!) are happy to just slap some slop together and submit it. At least the person reaching out for “another pair of eyes” to look something over cares enough to have some pride in the final product. I’d rather create that kind of careful person than the sloppy “who cares” type.

[Hanna]

“Do you ask your parents to edit your reports/emails/presentations for work? When does it stop?”

How about kids collaborating on parent work? Both of my parents have run pieces of professional writing and presentations past me. I assume this will stop when they die.

I have begun serving as an expert witness and had my first deposition a couple of weeks ago. My mother’s been doing expert witness work for some decades. You bet I went to her for some coaching about how to be a more effective witness.

[roethlisburger]

@doschicos

Do you ask your parents to edit your reports/emails/presentations for work? When does it stop?

In my work, sharing any work product with anyone outside the company, other than a specifically authorized party, would be a violation of the NDA and other company policies.

[dfbdfb]

[Pres Sullivan**, @CaliDad2020 #229: No, I didn’t misread Pres Sullivan’s comments at all. She said that she wouldn’t have considered it a violation in her class. I’ve been saying all along what she said—that when in doubt, ask the instructor.

Faculty members are allowed to create all sorts of exceptions to general rules in their classes. The fact that a faculty member has said that X would have been allowed in their class(es) does not mean that X is generally allowable.

ESL proofreading: Actually, there’s some pretty solid evidence that people can learn to proofread really, really well in languages they’re not a native speaker of. Doesn’t mean it’s easy, certainly, and the neural pathways involved do seem to be somewhat different than for a native speaker, but it’s still a completely learnable skill.

Basic grammar guides: I’m actually not that much a fan of Strunk & White—I like Strunk’s original version (it’s rather dated now, though), but I very much don’t like many of White’s additions. I like the Chicago Manual, but it’s long and overly detailed. Breezier intros include Woe Is I, The Elephants of Style, and Shapiro’s Write Right.