Parents editing college student's papers

Parent Cafe
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"Based on this thread I’m afraid I agree with the Post article-colleges need to rely solely on proctored in class assessments for evaluating student performance. There’s no way of knowing whose work is being turned in otherwise. Maybe papers can be just a completion grade.
Given for example Calidad’s highly academic relatives, every paper could have been a perfect tome worthy of publication. As both spell check and grammar check are widely available I have to believe more than proofreading assistance is being provided by parents or others, and Yes, I do have a problem with that. The kids in my child’s class shouldn’t be competing with me academically. "

Lol @roycroftmom If I didn’t know better I would wonder if you just called me a liar, my kid a cheater and my deceased Grandmother a co-conspirator! Poor Grammy, cheating from the great beyond. She was a special person, but she’s exceeded even my heartfelt adoration with this stunt.

AND I just found out that my kid’s school has a special kind of admit that gets EXTRA RESOURCES and priority in classes and extra-guidance and priority in research! It’s not fair!!

I’m pretty sure your kid and mine aren’t in the same class, so you’ll be ok. (Now, if it was a math class, you’d WANT me to proofread my kid’s proofs. I’d ruin their grade by at least 2 full points.)

Now if I can just talk my kid into taking an MFA (fat chance!) I’ll get to workshop the pants off their prose (and keep them in diapers another year or two!)

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@sorghum I just gas up the Falcon, zip down to St. Barts compound and have the valet do it while I wait at the pool. Much more enjoyable. The au pair needs to concentrate on important things like feeding my big college boy. He’s still growing!

You people know nothing about education.

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While Calidad is in St Barts thinking far deeper thoughts than he thinks I am capable of, I found this article on the internet.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2010/09/10/hofer promoting a book ‘the iConnected Parent’

“…Our survey results showed that 19% of the students in the study reported sending papers home to their parents for editing and proofing; given that this is self-report data, the number is likely higher…”

“…Moore: My reporting suggests there’s a class divide in terms of the benefits that iConnected kids reap, as those with college-educated parents are most likely to benefit from emailing a paper home for mom and dad to edit before turning it into professors as their own. The first-generation students to whom I spoke or professors told me about saw this as cheating. Many of these well-off kids did not. They simply saw it as one more resource to which they had access…”

Editing papers falls under the common blunders portion of the article.

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@“Snowball City” You’re in luck. We touched down briefly in the BVI (there’s a tea shop on the water the Missus adores! so we had to stop for a crumpet and they have wifi! No technological divide here! And don’t feel bad about the “deeper thoughts” I think I think deeper thoughts than ANYONE is capable of - so you’re in a lot of GREAT company!)

Those stats are interesting. I’ll check them out. I stumbled across this paper from 1996 as well. It is super-thick and seems extra-wonky (and I have only really skimmed it. Hard to read on the Falcon - too much turbulence.) There is a lot of inequality in schools - often created by the schools themselves (Regents, Honors College, College-specific guidance not availableto the entire University anyone?) In this case they debate if “orthodox writing centers” themselves are an ethical problem. As I said, I did not deep-dive but one passage caught my eye, and I will quote it here, because it really gets to the heart of where I come from on this issue:

"Another political danger confronting the orthodox writing center is a kind of classism or elitism. By holding clients to a standard that writing center practitioners and educators in general do not observe, the center may relegate them to an inferior role. In refusing to write on a student’s paper or supply occasional phrasing or suggest specific lines of inquiry, writing center personnel are withholding from clients precisely the kind of directive, appropriative intervention that is routineIy offered to publishing academics by colleagues and editors.

The authors of this article frequently show their writing to others who have suggested and sometimes actually made specific, detailed changes in their texts. Do students deserve less than what we expect for ourselves?"

http://wpacouncil.org/archives/20n1-2/20n1-2clark.pdf

I find it interesting that Prof who habitually use collegues, friends, professionals, editors, to help focus and improve their work, still feel completely comfortable that it is “their” work.

I have worked with many students in creative writing MFA settings. I have read and commented on many of thier papers as a “helper” and I have read and commented on many of their papers as a grader. While creative writing is different in many ways from reports or analytical papers, it is pretty easy to tell when a writer’s voice changes in a way where you doubt they have actually done the intellectual work to make an idea their own. I think most professor, if anyone out there is actually writing significant parts of a paper for a student, can tell. One of the most common comments I made as a creative writing reader was “this doesn’t sound like the previous 4 pages.” And it is usually worse in creative non-fiction, because it is easy to “adapt” the voice of the source material.

It’s an interesting question. I still think the aid provided by a parent (or non-student friend) on a paper or two over the course of a college career is way down the list of substantial inequities for 1st gen or academically resource challenged students, but I could be wrong. I would suggest maybe the thing to do, rather than restricting other students access to this resource is find a way to offer it to other students. I don’t know if writing centers now have the option of emailing a paper at “non-office” hours (I think that’s probably the biggest draw of parent/friends - they wil work at non-office hours and don’t have the homework stress of your roommate.) but that would be something to consider. It even be something that could be outsourced (to adjust for time differences. A 10 pm paper-editing session in New York is a, what, 4 pm paper in Hawaii! Just a thought…

Anyway - Got to go. We’re watching the meteor shower with cocktails on the Prince’s yacht before we head off to St. B’s. Toodles!

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“there’s a tea shop on the water the Missus adores! so we had to stop for a crumpet”

Poseur. Now, if you had mentioned meat pates and conch fritters, I might have started to believe you. The BVI ain’t Bermuda. :smiley:

“I still think the aid provided by a parent (or non-student friend) on a paper or two over the course of a college career”

I don’t get the sense that many here supporting the parental involvement are talking about a paper or two.

As far as the comments from that 1996 report, I wouldn’t necessarily assume that any writing center practices of today directly mirror those of 21 years ago.

The book that snowball mentions is written and researched by Middlebury professors which is interesting to note as it was already mentioned that the college is very strict about parental involvement in student work.

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@doschicos see, I should have had you look over my post and I would not have been revealed! That’s why you get an editor.

The part I quoted and the issue is raises is not dated - many (some?) writing centers still maintain the “suggestion only” rule. The question is why a Professor feels comfortable with a level of input on their papers/publications (from writing center, friend, cohort, students, aunt Em…) and still are comfortable (as, most of the time, they should be) that the final product is “their” work. But that same level of input is thought to somehow make the student’s paper “less” their own work, to the point that it woud violate the code and/or mission of the writing center. The issue really should be, in my mind, how well the student has taken the inputs (properly citing those that rise to the level of requiring citations) and synthesized those into a cogent, coherent argument/discussion/work of creative non-fiction/story/film/play…

There seems to be an assumption here among some that parents/friends/others are writing the paper or parts of the paper for the student. If that is true, it is a clear violation of almost any code I saw. And I agree that students should in no way violate the schools code.

But proofreading is clearly allowed by some. (See UVa’s Sullivan FAQ and Harvard’s code if you have any question.)

And discussion of general topics/approaches to the paper is allowed by some.

The place we seem to be differing is if, in those situations where discussion of the paper is allowed, should that discussion be allowed to inlcude parents/non-school related friends? I really don’t see why not, the student is still required to take whatever discussions he might have - whether with a writing center aid, a roommate or Uncle Bill - and put it through an intellectual transmorgification (apolgies to Calvin and Hobbes) and make it their own. That’s just the job of writing.

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Yes, proofreading is allowed by some. (Not including Pres Sullivan, by the way—she doesn’t address it.) Parental proofreading is allowed by far fewer, though.

And I stand by my ethical concerns stated upthread. Just because something is allowed, after all, does not mean it is best practice.

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Off topic–but as to uneven parental resources: my kids went to a very mixed socioeconomically school system. When my S was in fifth grade, the teachers were really into the writing process, revision, editing, etc., which was great. Knowing I was a writing instructor, S’s teacher asked if I’d help out in the class. So once a week, for several hours, I set up at a desk in the hallway between the fifth grade classrooms, and kids would come out with their drafts to talk over the revision process and various editing and revision issues with their papers–the same thing I’d do with my own kids. It was the most enjoyable volunteering I ever did while my kids were in school.

(please don’t consider this part of an argument–it’s just a side comment. :slight_smile: )

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I’ve been enjoying this thought provoking thread the last few days, especially all the posts from dfbdfb and calidad2020. Thanks for taking the time to explore the issues involved.

In a best case scenario, I hope the point of college is acquiring knowledge and skills, not the grades. When parents with writing skills supplement classroom instruction, that furthers the goal. Imho. When the same parents write their kid’s paper, it doesn’t.

Some see college as preparation for the working world. As far as I know, in the working world writing collaboration is fairly common. So modelling that in college would seem useful to me.

I feel pretty strongly about at least attempting to teach the value of intrinsic motivation. I homeschooled my own until high school and never assigned any grades. My goal was to teach them to value learning for its own sake and help them develop the skills needed to educate themselves.

Since I don’t really care about grades, I don’t really care about cheaters except to the extent they may harm themselves. My kids are long grown and done with college and grad school. They write articles and books. Husband and I always gave input when they asked. By college, they only wanted me to tell them if the writing was clear to a non-expert.

My point of view is incredibly privileged. My many years spent on this board have really opened my eyes to that fact. Sometime back a bunch of us were on a thread discussing “Paying for the Party” The playing field isn’t level. I have no idea how to fix that. Ultimately that seems to me to be the point of this thread.

fwiw

Adding; I just can’t get too interested in all these college rules.

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I too have felt this discussion to be very enlightening in a rather dystopian way. I’m not certain I understand the “preparation for the working world rationale”, as really that would suggest we should all collaborate on all exams and projects and just do away with assessments all together for students. Nevertheless I have found the varying views of ethics remarkable and indicative of a sea change in generational values, which is always interesting to watch. Good luck to all.

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@dfbdfb

I’m worried about your proofreading skills. First Harvard and now President Sullivan. I quote again below:

Q: For three years in college, my father PROOFREAD (caps mine) and edited my papers. I never thought of this as cheating, and highly doubt that he did. What do you think?

A: I think it depends on the professor. In my own classes, I say to students: “It is fine with me if you consult with librarians, or writing tutors, or others, people who edit your work or give you suggestions about your writing. I don’t have a problem with that. But, the ideas and the final expression of those ideas must be your own.” So at least in my class, THAT WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN CHEATING. (caps mine.)

It truly does not get clearer than that in written or verbal communication.

It is interesting that you are so invested in discounting the actual, stated examples where it is clear as day this is permitted. That is odd to me.

Anyway, it is clear the reality is each university, and often times each college within the university and even each professor or even course within the collge might have different standards and it is critical a student make themselves aware.

Now, do I stop looking at papers when requested by friend’s kids?

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If the friend has confirmed permission, with parameters, from the instructor there would be no honor code violation.

Or you could develop a hybrid for the upperclassmen- I’ll look through it after you have used the resources such as the writing center. If they can’t be bothered to first find help themselves, then you will know that you are just being used as a convenience.

Certainly by that age the steadying hand on the seat of the bike should be lifted.

Honor code ethics aside, I do recognize that my view is colored by my kids’ learning styles. They learn best through the struggle and hearing a critique from a person that is not their parent makes a bigger impression.

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I am grateful that by the time my kids are/will be college-age, they have excellent writing skills that would not benefit from my input. Perhaps that is why this is not an issue at Princeton? Or, I imagine,among the secondary schools which focus heavily on developing superb writing skills, such as the elite boarding schools.

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@Roycroftmom, in my classes, your comments would get a lot of points off for sweeping generalities, slippery slope fallacies, and deliberate misreading of what people are saying.

Good writers can see subtle differences and perceive more than black and white understanding of what they read. So, in a word, no one is asserting what you say they are asserting.

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@“Snowball City”

Interesting - but, from the “equality of resource” argument, people here seem to have the attitude/idea that writing centers have unlimited resource. Isn’t there an argument that by me taking one kid out of the queue for the wriitng center it helps those with less resources. (I don’t actually know how overworked various writing centers are. I did help out in one many years ago that went from “not a kid in sight” early in the semester to “too many students not enough time” as finals approached.)

As for the “steadying hand” I still don’t really get it. My kids go to office hours, resource centers, special events, you tube tutorials - whatever they can get their hands on when they have the time/need. Are they supposed to be weaning themselves off those crutches too?

College is short. The number of papers most kids will write and rewrite are limited. After college few will write even as much as they write in college. Only a perverse few of us come on places like this and spew all the output a poster like me does. I really don’t think a situation that encourages a student to take one more jab at thier paper in the course of the semester is an opportunity that should be missed.

It should clearly not break any rules, of course. But a chance to interact with an interested young student and get that kid to perhaps think more deeply about topic he or his parents are paying 1000s of dollars to explore for 4 months, we should really casually toss that away?

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@garland, I am fortunate that the Ivy league faculties at my undergraduate and graduate universities, and the US Supreme Court Bar, of which I am a member, disagree with your assessment, but you are most welcome to it. As this thread has run its course, I am signing off now.

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New York State instituted ELA testing when I was a beginning reading teacher in a high ranking school district. They had an amazing teaching staff and the children thrived. But there were also students who could not meet the benchmarks set by these tests and I was assigned the task of improving their reading skills and spending time in explicit test prep.

At the same time, my own d was attending school in a nearby, but not as exceptional school district. She was an excellent, dedicated reader, way above grade level. The district did not spend much time in test prep–which philosophically is fine–but some direction and practice is important. In my home district the only practice test that came home showed my d getting mediocre scores, more comparable to the struggling readers I was working with than the high achieving readers in the district where I worked.

So one day I took it upon myself to spend approximately 2 hours tutoring my d in test taking skills. Most of that time was spent showing her what kind of detailed answers the test expected. I also made it clear that it was necessary to go back to the text to confirm your answers. We did a few practice sections and immediately her scores went up. She had the ability to do better, but her school had not provided guidance.

Well the bottom line is that my D scored a perfect score on the ELA. Not only did she receive a perfect 4, but her classmates who were equally good readers only received 3’s.

Now did my D benefit by my ability to tutor her? Without doubt. Was it fair? Well, yes–because she took the test and deserved that score. And if she were in another district, she may have received that support without my intervention.

Was it fair to the other students in her school? No, the lack of test preparation was not fair.

Btw–it was a repeat with my younger d. By that time some parents were catching on and were paying for similar tutoring that I was providing to my D for free. But it was still not a balanced playing field. But should our children not do their best, if we could supplement the instruction that the district was lacking?

And this wasn’t just about test scores, it was about basic reading and writing skills as well.

Which is why I’ve never hesitated to help teach my children-- not do the work–not take the test–but guide them to be their best.

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Whether college students benefit from parental input on writing depends on skill level of the student and of the parent.

In a perfect world even the very best young writers, from the most privileged backgrounds, become better writers in college. Imho

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@roycroftmom–not doubting your abilities at all! I can only go by what’s showing up here. (I tell my students that, too.)

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In my family we help each other (parents and adult child). We occasionally query one another for work or school projects - stuff like “how do I get this formula to work correctly in Excel?” (this question may be parent to child or child to parent!) Would you consider this cheating - damn us for not being independent adults - mark off grade points on a research paper for this?

How is this different from “Do I need a comma here or should it be a semicolon?” Yes, we all use the many internet resources but sometimes you want a very specific question answered and why not ask your family member?