Parents--Experience with Teach for America?

Parents Forum
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<p>Don’t assume that all TFA corps members are privileged, 26% were Pell grant recipients.</p>

<p>I don’t understand all the contempt either. The kids applying to TFA are looking for a way to help underserved areas, not take over. The positions these kids are filling are not the ones education majors are beating down the doors to get. Inner cities, isolated rural areas, minimum pay, continuing education requirements and apparently, lack of local support, that is what these kids sign up for. They want to help, they want to try to make a difference in the lives of the kids they touch, they want to lend a hand in ailing areas. I would think all “real” educators would want to see them succeed in their goal of enriching the their students’ educations and lives. Isn’t that what the education system is about?</p>

<p>The system and TFA aren’t perfect, but contempt for those trying to help is unwarranted.</p>

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<p>hoveringmom: I certainly didn’t mean to insult you with the line about expecting to get along with administrators for 20 years. I was merely reflecting back with a different twist your criticism that TFA teachers did not care about getting along with anyone since they were inherently short-timers. And I will note that I am not exactly a TFA cheerleader.</p>

<p>I can also note that (a) I am the son of a life-long teacher, someone who taught middle school and high school for 25 years before getting a PhD in Educational Philosophy and becoming a college teacher. I have the utmost respect for master teachers. (b) I have limited teaching experience myself and know full well how hard it is, and that it takes preparation other than enthusiasm and substantive knowledge of the field being taught. (c) My spouse, professionally, is very much on the front line of issues around education reform and the relationship between government and education, including things like teacher certification and evaluation. You may prefer to attribute validate-your-child motives to me, but that’s way off base.</p>

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<p>Frazzled, I think she may have read into my post since I said my DD was interested in policy and that she is an Ivy-League grad and that she thinks classroom experience is important for those who want to go into policy. Let me say two things: One is that I know teachers know better than anyone what the problems are – that was exactly my point – if you haven’t been in the classroom, you shouldn’t be starting charter schools, leading the district in D.C., etc. But not every teacher wants to give up the classroom to go into policy or reform full-time. Secondly, hoveringmom, you mention parents who have no education experience. I am not a teacher. However, I have been the president of three non-profit booster clubs supporting various schools for many, many years. I have served on the governing councils of my kids’ schools next to teachers and administrators for a number of years. I have advocated for more issues than I care to remember both at the level of the board of education, at the local mini-district and within the school itself. I’ve written editorials that have been published and so on and so forth. Oh, and I’ve spent a lot of time volunteering in actual classrooms and seeing what actually goes on. I’m treated with a lot of respect at my kids’ schools because the teachers know that if they need something, I and the parents in our organization will go to bat for it. So parents like those I’ve worked with may not be professional teachers, but I think we’ve earned a right to speak on the subject.</p>

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<p>Very interesting perspectives…thank you all for your insight!</p>

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<p>phew! We all said a mouthful! ;)</p>

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<p>Is TFA a for profit organization?</p>

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</p>

<p>No, it is not. It is a non-profit organization.</p>

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<p>

It surprises me, Linda, that you should have to ask whether TFA is a for-profit organization when you have served as a mentor teacher (as per your post #35 in this thread). Perhaps one way TFA could make some headway with experienced teachers is to provide them with more information about the organization.

This is another interesting statement, from a mentor teacher particularly. Much of the criticism from another experienced teacher on this thread asserts that TFA recruits are resume-hounds who apply for self-serving reasons. It’s interesting to see the disparity.</p>

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<p>I’d like to share my daughter’s experiences. She was in TFA over ten years ago, when it was not nearly so large and well known.</p>

<p>There was a prior poster who stated that TFA teachers do not make any long and lasting connections with their students. In my daughter’s case, and in most of her fellow corps member’s cases, that is simply not true. She still hears from many of her former students. She was so gratified when one of them emailed her when he was accepted with a full scholarship for Stanford. He specifically told her that it was because of her math class, and her belief in his abilities, that he was able to accomplish this. During her second year, she started teaching her students algebra, even though she was told by her administration that the students in the school were not capable of taking algebra. (She taught general sixth grade her first year, middle school math her second year, and stayed for as third year to teach an alternative high school class.)</p>

<p>As far as not being comparable to a highly trained, master teacher, well…that might be true, if you can find a lot of these types of teachers in the schools that TFA typically places their corps members in. Perhaps it is different now, with the economy the way it is, but I doubt it. I happen to work in an urban high school, although certainly not the most urban. I am not a teacher, but I can tell you that while there are a few highly dedicated, hard working teachers in my school, the majority of them are either new teachers who burn out in a few years, or long time teachers with tenure who don’t give a flying fig about their students because they are counting the days till retirement.</p>

<p>In the school where my daughter was placed, they could not find and retain enough teachers of any caliber, let alone competent teachers. On her first day, she noticed a group of kids milling about the courtyard an hour after the bell had rung. When she called the office, it was discovered that a teacher had simply not bothered to show up. Turned out this was fairly common. Teachers often just failed to show up one day. Anyhow, no one did anything with these students, so my daughter invited them into her classroom. For the first several weeks of school , she had close to 60 students in her room. She managed. Her district actually hired several teachers that had been FIRED from nearby districts-
which teacher would I want my son or daughter to have? The long term teacher who has is basically a warm body, or the inexperienced teacher willing to work his/her @#$ off to make sure her students succeed? </p>

<p>As for why she did not major in education or become a teacher the traditional way—I think it is because like many young people, she did not truly know what she wanted to do. She started off as a marine bio major, considered switching to French or math, and ultimately graduated with a degree in economics. She was headed to grad school before she decided to join TFA. She told me the day of her graduation that she would not be coming back to CT for grad school because she was moving to LA to teach. She is still teaching, and a good number of her fellow corps members are also still involved in education in some way. Some of them who have gone on to other things are still involved in the lives of children in one way or another.</p>

<p>As I said, her experience was over ten years ago, so I am sure things have changed. I understand Teach for America has MANY more applicants today, and because of the economy, some of them may not have the best reasons for applying. I am aware that not everyone fulfills their committment. But , that is also the case with teachers hired the traditional way. I also understand that there may be some resentment toward TFA teachers. Another urban district near me has recently begun placing TFA teachers in their schools, and there is a lot of grumbling among traditionally certified teachers in the area, because in this state, there is a glut of some types of teachers, and it can be extremely difficult to find a job. TFA is certainly not a perfect organization, but I think it has provided many good teachers for a lot of students in under-served schools.</p>

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<p>Linda Darling-Hammond of Stanford University (and Obama’s education advisor during the transition) has some strong opinions on TFA based on hard data.</p>

<p>Here’s a link to some of her (and others) research on the subject: [url=<a href=“http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcj5ndsz_28cdp2gbhd]LindaHammondResearchonTFA[/url”>http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcj5ndsz_28cdp2gbhd]LindaHammondResearchonTFA[/url</a>]</p>

<p>My experience with the program is vicarious - a friend gave up a PhD fellowship to enroll in the program, only to find the TFA reality drastically differed from the TFA pitch. Let me make clear that this is not someone who shies away from a challenge, he’s a triathlete who’s also placed in some major marathons and graduated with a 4.0. Nevertheless, after a few months of giving it his best shot, he left and ran back to grad school, but his fellowship had been given to someone else. </p>

<p>Obviously, his experience was not a good one.</p>

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<p>I was not hired by TFA as a mentor; mentors for each TFA “teacher” are assigned at the school level. For ex., your D is assigned to a school to teach, say, 7th grade Science. She will be paired with a 7th grade Science teacher who has experience at that particular school, is familiar with the textbook and curriculum, and knows about the school’s culture.
It seems to me there was some undercurrent that TFA had received a lot of money at one time, but no, I do not keep track, as I am a mentor for the school and have no contact with TFA beyond receiving a form letter.</p>

<p>And why would TFA’s non profit status affect one’s mentoring?</p>

<p>Again, I am sure there are exceptions, but in my experience, seeing what I have seen, in my classroom (and let me add that I spent a lot of time each week with my TFA
“teacher”), it is difficult for these young people because they have been promised one thing and the reality is very, very different. It is as though becoming a janitor trainee were suddenly a competitive process requiring four years of academic preparation, interviews, and written tests.</p>

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<p>ctinct: your D sounds like a born teacher!!! :-)</p>

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<p>

It wouldn’t, necessarily. Do you bother to keep your dismissive attitude separate from your mentoring? (I mean, you can’t even bring yourself to describe the person you’re mentoring as a teacher without using quotation marks :rolleyes:) I thought it was odd that you didn’t know about TFA’s not-for-profit status because it’s a basic fact about the organization; therefore I also wondered (still do) about the accuracy of your other statements. </p>

<p>For instance, you tell us that TFA recruits have such poor classroom management skills that classroom aides must frequently be assigned to keep order for them, thereby making them more expensive district employees. Other posters have pointed out that TFA recruits are working in school districts that rarely have the resources to hire aides. I’m curious about TFA districts that do. I asked you for some information about your situation in post 40. Sure, it’s none of my business, but it would help me to judge exactly how much salt with which to take what you’re saying.</p>

<p>

Isn’t this what every teacher in these school districts is doing? You included? Are you implying that TFA recruits are somehow above the job because they tend to come from highly-ranked universities? </p>

<p>For someone who is a career educator in a disadvantaged area, you’re coming from a very different place from hoveringmom. Despite her contempt for TFA and its recruits, she has a passion and dedication to teaching children in disadvantaged areas. You, on the other hand, describe the job itself in negative terms, comparing it to being a “janitor trainee.” Your first post truly did give me the impression that you were unfamiliar with TFA at all.</p>

<p>Others on this thread have passed along opinion as fact: TFA’s “near zero” conversion rate to classroom teachers, the assertion that TFA teachers are paid by the organization instead of the school district, the indication that TFA recruits don’t need to take qualifying exams, etc. You know, it’s fine to dislike any organization, and even to criticize it because it pushes buttons about status, privilege, “shining stars,” whatever. This is just a discussion board, not the front page of the New York Times. It does seem a shame to me that people are so willing to denigrate something based on what they think they know about it. But I’m kind of used to it – I’ve been reading the Vanderbilt board for 5 years.</p>

<p>The OP began the thread looking for information on TFA’s application process. (Are you still out there, ab_med? How did everything go?) It’s morphed into something quite valuable for TFA corps members, so I’ve asked my d, again, to read it. She’s never needed much in the way of positive reinforcement - lucky for her.</p>

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<p>frazzled1, I read my daughter a number of the posts. She said something like, “Wow, I’d kind of forgotten that there were people who don’t like TFA.” I guess this means that the teachers around her are more supportive now because they were not supportive earlier in the year. I hope it means that. Part of the problem with TFA is that they tell corps members to do specific things differently and sometimes that becomes a sharp conflict with what the school wants them to be doing. At one point, she was under severe pressure to drop all the TFA methods and just do things the way it’s always done. One of the other teachers told her in plain English that she could be fired – which, of course, was not her place to say or within her power to do. It almost seemed like some people really wanted to see her fail. They kept predicting she would burn out from the long hours she was putting in and quit. I think all of that is water under the bridge now which is great.</p>

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<p>“It does seem a shame to me that people are so willing to denigrate something based on what they think they know about it.”</p>

<p>Frazzled, I concur. Assessments based on anecdotal evidence or emotion lack merit. I offered my friend’s experience as an example, but he is, after all, only one person.</p>

<p>Hence my earlier posting of the research link to several studies concerning the effectiveness of TFA. </p>

<p>From the research summary: </p>

<p>“At least five studies have been completed that include data on Teach for America, three of which have been published in peer-reviewed journals. As a group, the studies find the students of uncertified TFA teachers do significantly less well in reading than those of new, certified teachers, with the negative effects most pronounced in elementary grades. In math, three of the studies also report significantly lower scores for beginning TFA teachers’ students than for prepared teachers. When TFA teachers obtain training and certification, their students generally do as well as those of other teachers and sometimes better in mathematics. However, most TFA teachers leave after 2 or 3 years (more than 80% are gone after three years), so the benefits of their training are lost. Looking across the studies, TFA comparisons are favorable only when the comparison group is even less prepared than the TFA recruits.”</p>

<p>Do participants in TFA benefit from the program? Perhaps. Given the attrition rate, it doesn’t seem those benefits compel them to stay in teaching.
Do students of TFA recruits benefit from the program? Research suggests that as a group, they do not.</p>

<p>Consider the data from a different perspective. As a parent of an elementary school student, would you be more or less comfortable having your child taught by a TFA fellow or by a classroom veteran?</p>

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<p>Running, a number of people have already posted that this is seldom the choice in these schools. At the kinds of schools that TFA places at, the choice is often not between a veteran teacher and a TFA teacher – especially at the high school and middle school level.</p>

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<p>Well, as a parent in the public school system, I’ve never had the option of choosing my children’s teachers. But let’s pretend that I could. I wouldn’t consider “TFA recruit vs. classroom veteran” to be a meaningful choice. I mean, if you could guarantee that the classroom veteran would foster my child’s progress, and the TFA recruit would impede it, the choice would be clear. But you can’t, and neither can the studies. As I’ve said before, I admire the teaching profession greatly. My children have had some marvelous teachers, and many good ones. Still, they’ve each had a few lemons, too - and these have all been traditionally certified classroom veterans. (Well, except for the first-year teacher who was in so far over her head that she was let go after the first marking period. But even she was traditionally certified.)</p>

<p>The studies you cite are not the only ones that have been done; TFA quotes independent studies with more favorable results. And I wonder why, if TFA is so very ineffective, principals continue to hire its recruits? An independent 2007 survey of principals found “Nearly all principals (95 percent) rate Teach For America corps members as effective as, if not more effective than, other beginning teachers in terms of overall performance and impact on student achievement…Nearly two-thirds of principals (61 percent) regard Teach For America teachers as more effective compared with other beginning teachers in their schools with respect to their impact on student achievement.” Is there some kind of vast elite conspiracy at work here, systematically funneling incompetent blue bloods into the education system and then rewarding them with plush, and undeserved, grad school placements two years later?</p>

<p>I’ve never posited that TFA recruits will be more effective than traditionally-certified teachers, and that’s not what TFA is saying, either. I haven’t been reading this thread as a competition; I’ve been responding to the various notions that TFA is a “service club” for ambitious resume hounds who have an unfair leg up on the education majors who’ve pursued teaching since the age of 18, since TFA salaries aren’t paid by the school district and TFA recruits don’t have to take qualifying exams, and that quite naturally TFA’s very privileged, usually upper-class Ivy Leaguers are terrible teachers who require classroom aides and ought to have bulletproof vests, too. Or not. </p>

<p>I mean, who’s got all the hostility here? If there’s a corresponding level of negativity among the pro-TFA posters, I can’t see it. As it happens, my youngest d intends to pursue the traditional pathway to certification. She’ll apply to her college’s School of Education next year. She hasn’t had a chance yet to absorb the negative mindset so many teachers apparently have toward TFA. At the moment, she couldn’t be more proud of her sister.</p>

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<p>Here is a link to a study on secondary school TFA teachers that finds that: “The findings show that TFA teachers are more effective, as measured by student exam performance, than traditional teachers. Moreover, they suggest that the TFA effect, at least in the grades and subjects investigated, exceeds the impact of additional years of experience, implying that TFA teachers are more effective than experienced secondary school teachers. The positive TFA results are robust across subject areas, but are particularly strong for math and science classes.”</p>

<p>The article also discusses other studies with positive results. Yes, I found the link through the TFA site, but the studies look valid.</p>

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<p>My children were never in the target population for TFA. They went to schools where the teacher quality was almost uniformly high, and when they could chose their classes to get the teachers who were reputed to be the best. That said, they loved the few opportunities they had to be taught by newly-minted, passionate, wet-behind-the-ears 22 year-olds, some of whom were certified and some not. Of my daughter’s English teachers, two of the best were one who was passing through for a couple of years before starting a PhD program, and another who was teaching part-time while writing his American Studies dissertation and editing a journal. (And the third of her most effective teachers was an experienced master teacher about a minute from retirement.)</p>

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<p>mimk and frazzled, </p>

<p>Forgive me, I did not expect you take such a literal interpretation of my last post. The question posed was rhetorical, i.e., “Given the data, if such a choice were made available, would a parent etc.” I am well-aware that parents are rarely in the position of being able to pick and choose their children’s teachers. </p>

<p>The SES and motives of TFA fellows are of little concern to me, unless those characteristics have some impact on the program’s effectiveness. </p>

<p>Speaking of which -I’m afraid I was unable to find a link to either of the studies quoted in your posts. Could you please provide your sources? I’d be interested to see who the authors are and what data are used to support their conclusions. Where can I find a compilation of administrators’ evaluations of their schools’ experiences with TFA? </p>

<p>Several years ago, when evaluating college options, I considered (among other things) student/teacher ratio, percentage of classes taught by grad students, and the number of professors with terminal degrees in their respective disciplines. I felt it would be foolish to ignore those statistics when making my choice, as those factors no doubt impacted the quality of the educational I would receive. Also, I considered information from several different sources and not just from the college website or from promotional materials.</p>

<p>I took a similar approach here. If the ultimate goal of TFA is to improve education (a goal presumably shared by its participants), it would make sense to investigate whether the program does what it purports to do for all involved and to verify the program’s assertions by consulting one or more third parties. The link from my initial post was to a summary of five independently conducted published studies of the TFA program from a reputable, named source. </p>

<p>I am not opposed to the concept of teaching fellows, but good intentions don’t necessarily make for good programs. TFA has earned enough negative press to warrant concern. There are a number of other teaching fellowships available (e.g. MfA’s Newton Fellowships) that have a different structure and modus operandi than TFA. It would be interesting to see how those programs stack up against each other in terms of student achievement. </p>

<p>Please don’t mistake thoughtful analysis for animosity simply because fact-based conclusions are not consistent with your personal beliefs and biases. You and anyone else can certainly view the TFA program through whatever colored glasses you wish.</p>