<p>Er…translation please!</p>
<p>Checking in-a week at the beach and now back to reality.</p>
<p>My son still will not deal with anything college related although he did tell me a few weeks ago the real problem is he has no idea what to major in.</p>
<p>He also just doesn’t want to think about moving on-he is really stuck right now.</p>
<p>The QAS from the SAT came in the mail a couple of weeks ago-he looked at it briefly and put it aside and hasn’t looked at it since.</p>
<p>He has also been very moody and really mouthy-totally out of character.</p>
<p>I have no idea what to do at this point other than to back off and leave him be-as someone else posted earlier in the end it is his life and he has to live with the decisions he makes-I can’t force him to do anything.</p>
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Umm…your disagreement is a moot point. It’s their test. They designed it, they analyze the data, they set the bar, and they determine what the numbers mean. What you think the scores ought to mean isn’t relevant or valid.</p>
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<p>Moot with respect to what appeal? I am fully able to opine on matters with which I have experience but do not expect my disagreement to be consequential.</p>
<p>On a complete side note, for those from the Southern hemisphere hoping to study in the US for University, we’re technically “High School Class of 2010” as we graduate in December 2010 and still the “College class of 2015”. Though that is a bit misleading! But it DOES mean that if we get in overseas, we have half a year of either getting a job or going to University in NZ until we leave (more to get a head start… credits don’t transfer)</p>
<p>But yes, I am one of those “High School of 2010, College class of 2015” students from New Zealand.</p>
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<p>Which is precisely why AP credit is awarded based upon the discretion of individual colleges and universities. The College Board’s scoring system gives a frame of reference for AP scores as gauges of a given student’s comprehension of course material. Whether the College Board’s definition of content mastery is in fact accurate and satisfactory is up to the college in question.</p>
<p>If a 5 on Calculus BC and Physics C is enough to exempt you from freshman calculus and physics at MIT, then I would suppose the College Board’s scoring system is sufficient in measuring content comprehension (at least in these fields).</p>
<p>Also, as a side note, your perception of an “incredibly weak grasp of AP biology curriculum” is naturally skewed ;)</p>
<p>I said:</p>
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<p>to which Silverturtle referred back to a previous post about how an A in a college class doesn’t necessarily indicate mastery of the material. Which is fair if you assume that Friend B’s grader was correct and that neither Friend A or Friend B mastered the material. Of course, Friend A’s grader might have been correct, and Friend B got the short end of the stick. </p>
<p>It’s all moot, because grading a science lab analysis project shouldn’t be subjective at all. Clearly, though, the grades weren’t assigned objectively. Grading is squishy, both in college and high school and on the AP. As other posters mention, it’s up to the individual college to decide what to do with AP scores.</p>
<p>Both Friend A and Friend B ended up with PhDs in their field, so it was all moot for them, too. :)</p>
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Sure, but do you have experience and qualifications in the field of standardized test design and metrics? I thought you were a high schooler. Your experience is that of a test-taker, which is an entirely different thing.</p>
<p>AP credits - whether or not one has a complete “mastery” of the subject - can be valuable in fullfilling gen ed requirements outside of a student’s major. For example, both of D’s favorite schools will give her fine arts credit for her 3 in AP Art History…pretty cool for a buisness major.</p>
<p>^I agree. I almost wish S had taken a lang AP class. He hates lang (took Latin 3 years) and I know a few of the schools he is looking at will require him to take a lang.</p>
<p>I actually thing Silverturtle is on to something (although it is clear that as a HS student, he probably does not have experienced in test design). We pass people from year to the next in school without mastery. Teachers consider their jobs done when the student gets a B or a C or even a D and can be moved on to the next year. I’d argue that we should hold people in each subject until they’ve mastered it. Then they can move on. Thus, getting a B in Calculus shouldn’t be good enough. One should go back and learn the things one doesn’t understand as the subject is cumulative and you’ll need to understand in full whatever you missed before you take Multivariable Calculus or Linear Algebra. The same with Chemistry or Physics. The same is likely true in foreign languages. </p>
<p>As I’ve said earlier, I’m not a big fan of the AP courses because they emphasize breadth over depth, but let’s posit that the things they cover are actually important for understanding of the subject. So, getting a 3 probably means that you are missing some important understanding or knowledge (assuming it was not a case of test panic or bad test day). I wouldn’t want my kids to move on in a cumulative subject without absolute mastery as their lack of earlier foundation will be costly later.</p>
<p>Our school systems (and I suspect colleges too) don’t seem to mind if you move on even if not fully prepared. If you got a 3 on an AP (due to lack of understanding or knowledge as opposed to bad test day), you probably will find it harder to master the next level and will get a B or a C – and then the college will again move you on to the next level less than fully prepared. So, while the colleges will accept your 4 or 3, you probably should not take them up on it unless you go back and master the material you missed. In that sense, I would agree with him. I think the system is flawed in not insisting on mastery and the tests that offer placement into that system are consistent with the flaws.</p>
<p>I, too, have serious issues with the AP system…but with that said, if a 3 in Econ allows an education major to skip a gen ed requirement unrelated to her field and take an extra education course instead, I don’t see any harm.</p>
<p>shawbridge, by this system we’d be saying that no one gets a degree unless they have a 4.0. That can’t be what you’re aiming at, is it?</p>
<p>Another way of interpreting grades is in the old fashioned way, where C represented a passing grade. That meant that the student had mastered enough of the curriculum by the school’s standards. Exceeding those expectations at higher levels meant a B or an A. With grade inflation, at many schools a B has become the new C. </p>
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<p>I think that this is true to some level in the high school math sequence, especially with Algebra. For college math, I don’t think it applies. One easy test would be to look at math course grades for math majors and physics and engineering majors. See if getting a “B” or lower grade in freshman year math leads to declining grades over the next three years. I’ll bet that it doesn’t.</p>
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<p>Shawbridge, you’d get along great with my younger daughter. She hates school because there are grades. She says that they should figure out what you need to know, test you on it, if you know it you move on, if you don’t you stay on that subject until you know it. Sounds great but she doesn’t get the economics of the public school system, educating the masses, state legislatures requiring subjects that some students are never going to master, etc.</p>
<p>SlitheyTove, that is what I mean, but I wouldn’t have the courses be one semester. I’d have much more independent learning and have kids complete courses faster or slower than others. Each kid would work in an area until either they mastered it or the instructor concluded that they could not. I agree with missypie that state requirements could wreak havoc with my proposed approach.</p>
<p>I took a lot of math in college and grad school. Every semester, I think had at least one math or stats class or both (I think I started freshman year placing into Linear Algebra and statistics first semester and took Multivariable Calculus and Differential Equations second semester). I did hit a point where I did not feel like I had mastered the material. There were just things I didn’t get (though this was not due to lack of effort). Had I gone to the next set of courses, I would have done less well.</p>
<p>SlitheyTove, in analyzing that data, we’d have a problem with what they call survivor bias. The kids who stay continue to do well but the kids who leave wouldn’t. In a sense, I’m one good example. I would have gone further if I could sense that I was going to do well and master the material, but could tell I wasn’t. One might see less survivor bias if we run do the analysis you’ve suggested on kids in majors that require the math but who are not math majors. But, my prediction would be opposite: I hypothesize that math grades typically don’t trend up but not infrequently trend down and that people who start lower are likely to trend lower.</p>
<p>^ My school did that when I was in 7th and 8th grade in the early '70’s. </p>
<p>“much more independent learning and have kids complete courses faster or slower than others. Each kid would work in an area until either they mastered it”</p>
<p>It used some kind of computer program. What I remember was,that it was sort of isolating (no one else was doing what I was doing), and I believe I “tested out” of some English that to this day, does not sound familiar to me.</p>
<p>If we’re going to get anecdotal, I’ll give mine. 5 on BC Calc (B’s in the class 
), placed out of first two quarters of first year college calculus sequence for scientists and engineers. Started first freshman quarter in 3rd quarter calculus, most of which was review. The (wonderful) professor was a tough grader who gave very few A’s; I got a B+ and felt very confident with the course material. I then went through another four quarters of math (Linear Algebra, Multivariate Calc, Differential Calc, Complex Analysis), again feeling very confident with my understanding of the material. I think those were mostly, if not all A’s (perhaps one B? time has dulled the memory ). My general experience was that non-A grades didn’t mean that I hadn’t mastered the material. </p>
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<p>We appear to each be a good example of the opposite outcomes. </p>
<p>I do like the ideal world vision where students move at their own pace. There was just an article in the Atlantic Monthly about this type of teaching in the real world (NYC, in fact). Here we go: [The</a> Littlest Schoolhouse - Magazine - The Atlantic](<a href=“http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/07/the-littlest-schoolhouse/8132]The”>The Littlest Schoolhouse - The Atlantic). Nice to know this isn’t just pie-in-the-sky.</p>
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And I have no problem with the fact that it will take a 5 (or very rarely a 4) to get out of any requirements at Carnegie Mellon or Harvard. Colleges can set their standards.</p>
<p>My experiences with the Calc AP was getting an A in class and a 2 on the BC exam. I never felt completely in charge of the material and choked on the AP. I took several years off from math (gap year, other courses) and went back to the beginning. College calculus ended up being an easy A. (And I actually took it self-paced.) I think in my case I actually needed the brain to mature, though some research as shown that taking a course again after a delay does often result in better understanding. I think you can also just run into a wall in math where you are incapable of moving on. My husband (no slouch in the math department) got several courses past calculus, but was very glad that the last math course he took was pass-fail. I knew a math major at Harvard (who went on to Law School) who said she’d enjoyed majoring in math, but realized she did not have the right sort of brain to contribute to the field.</p>
<p>I think we often forget that a “3” on an AP is supposed to represent an average college course. And most colleges in the US simply aren’t that competitive.</p>
<p>I’ve experience go at your own pace learning having been in a one room school house for two years where I was the only one at my grade level. In many ways it was great, though sometimes it’s nice to have others to work with.</p>
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<p>Sounds like montessori to me. Both my kids were/are in montessori til 6th grade when they moved/will move to traditional schools. I loved the fact that kids could advance and move at their own pace. And if one teaching method didn’t get the point across, something else would be tried.</p>
<p>Back to happy news about our kids. D1 just called after a successful interview for an (unpaid) internship at the Leage of Women Voters. She’ll be working 5 days, and she is the only high school student among the interns. They liked her resume and how she presented herself. She is also enthused about taking the subway to work and the excitement of being a “professional”. </p>
<p>Let us now hope that she wasn’t towed from her not-really-legal parking spot this morning. :eek:</p>