<p>On the self-paced / mastery issue: A million years ago I was a TA in the self-paced introductory computer science course at UC Berkeley. I just checked, and I see that the self-paced program is still going and offers more courses now.</p>
<p>The way it worked was that a student could choose to take the intro programming course either in a traditional lecture format or in the self-paced format. If they took it self-paced, they went through the material in a fixed sequence but on their own schedule. They did not attend class; they had to learn on their own. They had to take quizzes on new concepts and do regular programming assignments. Nothing was graded. </p>
<p>To take a quiz, the student had to come to the center and request it from an on-duty TA, take the quiz (untimed), and then have it graded face-to-face by a TA. If they didn’t get all the questions right, then they couldn’t move on until they took another version of the quiz, after waiting at least 24 hours. We had a file cabinet with about 15 versions of every quiz, and if a student used up all of them we would have to make up more, though I think this rarely happened. Programming assignments were similar. Students brought in their work, showed it to a TA, and if it didn’t work right or didn’t meet quality standards, they had to go back and fix it.</p>
<p>Back in those days, the student’s entire grade for the course was based on their performance in the same 3-hour timed final that the lecture students took. As a group, the self-paced students tended to do better.</p>
<p>I do think that in some circumstances, social promotion (or whatever you want to call it) is best for all. I’ve posted about my sister - she really couldn’t do HS math…she passed her one required math class in college on the third try (in a class designed for all the students who were on their last chance.) She took the GRE - 97th percentile on verbal; 3rd percentile on math. I’m sure that if she was in school now, she’d have some sort of diagnosis but specific learning differences were not recognized back then. Anyway, isn’t it best for society that she was promoted without mastery of math and is now a community college composition teacher, instead of being a high school drop out?</p>
<p>Agree, missypie. I think the student/teacher could come to a conclusion after real effort that the student just isn’t going to get some subject. Then you go to Plan B. But, don’t give the kid a C- and send her into the next class.</p>
<p>I tried to send my kids to a charter school called the Parker Charter Essential School in Massachusetts ([Table</a> of Contents](<a href=“http://www.parker.org/Homepage/table_of_contents2.htm]Table”>http://www.parker.org/Homepage/table_of_contents2.htm)) that focuses on mastery and was based upon the work of a Brown professor named Ted Sizer. Unfortunately, it was a lottery system and we didn’t win the lottery. I also read some interesting work related to grading and mastery by Alfie Cohen – some of which strikes me as thought-provoking and terrific and some that strikes me as thought-provoking and dead wrong.</p>
<p>SlitheyTove, are you suggesting as a general proposition that the probability of kids’ leaving the math curriculum is uncorrelated with their performance? I’d bet against that. If poorer performers leave, then you have survivor bias. </p>
<p>mathmom, good point. One has to judge the AP against the correct standard and I probably am weighting my experiences as student, grad student and prof at HYPS. If the course standards are a lot lower (or the peers a lot weaker), then maybe a 3 is qualified to move on (though it hurts me to say that).</p>
<p>I know that public school GCs are overworked as it is, but that sure would be a good topic of discussion with the more accomplished seniors - when to take the AP credit (e.g. in a course not in your major where you won’t have to build on it) vs. when not to (in Calc if your school takes a 3 and you made a 3 and you’ll need more math.)</p>
<p>Not sure if this is the right forum for this question, but can anyone give me advice on whether my D should submit a resume with her application? I’m really confused about it. The common application has a section for “supplemental information”, so what would be the benefit to a resume?</p>
<p>Many schools will say on their website or app form whether they want or allow resumes. If there’s something in the resume that doesn’t fit in spaces allowed on the application, I’d say send it. Unless a school says NOT to send a resume, I don’t think a student is gong to be denied admission because they sent one.</p>
<p>When Son applied to Baylor, they had a very bare bones “check the box” application. Check if you were involved in sports, theatre, band, etc. You’d check the same box if you had the lead in every show or if you sold tickets at one show. So they invited students to submit a resume also. (I think they’ve gone to the common app now.)</p>
<p>shawbridge, I’m just thinking that our respective different experiences with college math are coloring our gut reactions about how freshman year B grades might correlate with continued math performance. </p>
<p>D1’s car did not get towed, so I am feeling generous to the world at large. She now says that she needs more clothing appropriate for her internship and the weather, so the money saved from towing fees will roll over to a shopping trip. Perhaps this was her sneaky plan all along? ;)</p>
<p>@missypie, Thanks. Most of Ds apps will probably be common application. We received a preview of the common application and noticed for example that the number of spaces to list APs and SATIIs are insufficient for the number of those tests D has taken. Also, there are sections to list ECs where there is not enough room to clarify what the ECs are. On the other hand, we kind of want the universities to have more info. about her slightly scattered upbringing.</p>
<p>Generally, I would think that the “supplemental information” section would consist of a sheet of paper listing the extra EC and test score information (stats), while the resume would be where we provide information on her background. But providing both seems like overkill to me.</p>
<p>As I’ve mentioned here before, my D is a drill team officer. Drill team is huge in Texas - one of those all-consuming ECs and being an officer is also a big deal. We were discussing this with a guy in the Honors College at U of Arkansas, because we were concerned that folks outside of Texas wouldn’t “get it.” </p>
<p>He gave us some good advice: Use the resume not to just list what you did, but use action words to describe what you did. Instead of just “drill team officer”, use “taught…” “directed…” “organized…” “planned…”, etc. That makes a lot of sense to me. In many clubs, the officers do next to nothing; but in others, the officers have huge responsiblities. A person reading a resume that just lists the student’s position has no way of knowing the level of responsiblity involved.</p>
<p>slithey, I’m not thinking about freshman year grades specifically. Sorry for introducing my own experience if that is coloring your response to me.</p>
<p>I’m thinking about what causes people to go on or not in cumulative courses of instruction. Some of it is lack of interest (e.g., “I just don’t find math interesting”), in which case the decision not to go on could be uncorrelated with performance but might be negatively correlated. A decision not to go on could also be due to a failure to master the material (e.g., “Boy, I worked my butt off in that course and still got a B-; I don’t think I’ll take the next course”), in which case the decision not to go on will be negatively correlated with performance. I can’t tell a sensible story that leads to positive correlation (e.g., “I did badly this term and last so I’m more likely to take the next course than people who did well”). Averaging over the first two groups gives a negative correlation. I can’t figure out who would populate the third group. If it is big, you could get a zero correlation (or maybe even positive), but I’m having a hard time envision this group. Your experience of a B+ in your first course with a known hard grader does not, I would suggest, put you in group 3 because you and everyone else knew that the B+ from that prof was an A- or an A with anyone else. I want to hear the story of people who got B-'s from him (her?) or C’s from someone else who decided to go on for more than one term. I suppose you could have the people who got A+'s and didn’t go on because it was too easy, though I haven’t run into any of those. If you can give me a plausible positive correlation story, then I’ll modify my hypothesis.</p>
<p>On a more serious note, I always ask my kids to review the questions they got wrong and figure out why they got them wrong. Did they not understand the answer or make a careless mistake (e.g., put in a - sing for a + sign when making a substitution). I think grades are not very important per se but learning is and I want them to own the drive for mastery. We’ve discussed the fact that learning and grades are distinct and are usually but not always positively correlated. Sometimes you will learn more by taking risks and experimenting. But, HS grades and especially junior and senior year grades are important for the game of getting into college and we discuss that game as a game (one with consequential outcomes).</p>
<p>dignified1, ShawSon had a non-standard education – partially homeschooled – and he submitted a resume as part of the supplemental information. It listed activities he was involved in during his gap year and organized ECs into thematic groups. He didn’t include test scores there, but we weren’t big on AP classes but he instead went beyond the normal courses in independent study courses or homeschooled courses. But, I don’t see any real downside to include a resume that explains the ECs. The worst that can happen is that it gets ignored (well, I suppose an adcom member could have had a bad breakfast and be annoyed at getting excessive information, but I suspect that he/she would just ignore it).</p>
<p>Back to the merit of the scores, and also to what our kids are doing with them:</p>
<p>D got a 3 on AP Chem. We were both surprised…expected a 4, with moderate possibility of 5 based on her practice exams, her (tough-grading) teacher’s assessment of her knowledge and preparedness, and (tough-grading) grades in class.</p>
<p>For a girl not going into the sciences, this 3 will fulfill (at one of her college choices…her top-choice, in fact) her lab-science requirement, and she will definitely use it that way. If she ends up at one of the schools that require a 4 or 5 for placement out of the course, she will take a different lab-science to fulfill the Gen Ed.</p>
<p>She has learned a tremendous amount about Chemistry…way more than enough to make her an educated citizen in the science-based world we live in. Is it enough to move into College-level Chem 2? Probably not without a struggle, but she has no intention of ever moving in that direction. So I don’t think A-level mastery (or a 5) is necessary (though I’m not gonna lie…we would’ve loved it, after all the hours and hours of learning/studying/preparing she put in). I chalk it up to a combination of not-great-test-day and difficult subject for her.</p>
<p>Do of your kids get paid for passing AP exams? I always thought that it was an incentive for kids in low performing schools - [National</a> CrossTalk – Vol. 11 / No. 2 – Spring 2003](<a href=“Highereducation.org”>Highereducation.org)</p>
<p>However, for some reason, our students each get $100 for passing the AP Art History exam and the teacher gets $100 per student who passes. It’s only Art History, so I assume that someone who loves art has endowed it.</p>
<p>Just so I understand… The school pays the students for AP exam grades? Our students are required to take the exams. No monetary incentive other than the tuition that their parents will not have to pay for that class at university.</p>
<p>On the subject of what to do with AP credit for courses within the student’s major-- my son would ask this question at each of the colleges he visited. Uniformly, the administration (faculty and staff) all recommended not taking credit within his major whereas, also uniformly, the student giving the tour or the students on the discussion panel all recommended taking the credit if the student was comfortable with the subject. My son’s school does not teach any AP classes, they say that all their courses are at that level and above. Son got a 5 on BC Calc, and 4’s on Chem, and both Physics C (Mech) and (Elect & Magnetism). He plans on taking all of his AP credit offered, planning on major in Engineering. Not sure which AP exams he plans on taking next year, probably Eng Comp, US History, German language. I will have to make sure he looks at a test prep book to verify that he has no holes in regard to what the AP test is looking for.</p>
<p>No. No payment for taking AP exams. Actually taking the exam is not a choice at S’s school, if you sign up for the class you must take the exam. I wonder if payment is suppose to be an incentive to get kids to take AP Art History who might not otherwise take it?</p>