I am in the process of trying to convince both parents and student that several schools are not “beneath” them. I guess you have seen this before.
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I’ve seen very similar things that you described in the essay you read from that strong stat student. While it is no longer shocking to read essays that are arrogant and condescending - it is always unpleasant. I’ve said before that tone is clear in all the essays I’ve ever read. It is most clear in those essays.
I think sometimes it is hard for parents and students to remember that essentially, a college application is a job application. Applicants show their qualifications and hope that those qualifications (soft and hard) match what the schools are looking for. In a job application process, you want the hiring committee to like you. Being arrogant and condescending is almost never the right strategy.
I’ve listened to many podcast interviews of admission officers at all levels of college selectivity. A common thread is AO saying pretty explicitly that their schools have a “no jerks” policy. Not to say that some don’t get through anyways…but the applications where the ‘jerky’ qualities of the applicant are upfront and in your face are the easiest applications to deny.
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Sometimes, a mediocre essay doesn’t even have to be arrogant. My daughter was given some significant anxiety last year by the results reported from one of her friends, who had higher stats than my daughter, but was denied everywhere (even the state school, which should have been a safety). She ended up attending a good school that had rolling admissions and accepted her application later in the year. I saw her essay, and didn’t know enough about admissions at the time to know what was “wrong”–but now I do. The student talked about her “major accomplishment,” which involved a research discovery at her super-selective summer STEM program. However, the research discovery did not involve much active work (it was partly chance), and the program was one that is usually attended by highly privileged students. I now understand that the essay isn’t looking for people to repeat the accomplishments on their EC list, without adding much in terms of insight or personal style. These applications are so competitive–the last thing I would do is to think that someone was a shoo-in anywhere, even with an above-1500 SAT.
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At many schools, your hard work pays off with obscene aid, advanced credit, and sometimes selective offerings. Of course app deadlines impact this.
I’m glad my kids put me in my place when they chose safeties over the selective they got into. I’ve saved a boatload and with one out (working with kids from the selective he declined) and with my daughter having two fantastic internships - including one at a top think tank in DC - I’m hopeful she lands just as well although she’ll be geographically limited due to her bf who graduates a year sooner and who will hopefully be settled long b4 then. But they both assured me the where won’t matter if they hustle - and so far they are correct.
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I saw this a lot with UC PIQs - so many kids used all that space to describe their ECs again in great detail, despite clear instructions not to do that. It is hard for kids to dig deep and write about themselves outside of their tangible accomplishments.
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Our CC encouraged writing about the “least significant” EC. The one he only participates when he can squeeze it in and strictly for the pleasure of it. The jury is out on outcomes but I am confident it was great advice.
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Writing about any EC is definitely not the wrong move. Some of the best essays I read were about a student’s EC because the passion, motivation, and personality really came through. What a lot of students end up doing, however, is just redescribing the EC from their activities section with no additional personal insight. These essays are very hard to write, and many students have access to little guidance and write them under time pressure.
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This is a really great comment… thank you.
One of things that I’ve seen most of the parents of high achieving students struggling with is a perception of “fairness” mixed with entitlement and coming to grips with the fact that you can set your kid up, and they can do a lot of great things, but none of that predetermines an outcome.
I wish (and I know it’s a wish) that parents and students would be better able to internalize that admissions is about fit, not about effort or stats. And fit, ultimately, is not something a parent or a student control or determine. Yes, better stats and more effort may make an applicant stand out, and yes, those things may align to the fit a school optimizes for. But, just like life lessons in job interviews, or dating, or trying out for a team already 5 deep in your position, sometimes it’s just not going to work out and it’s not something you did.
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Your whole comment is valuable, but I particularly appreciate your calling out this noxious worldview so clearly and succinctly.
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Thank you for posting the screenshot/link to this!
I used that to have D24 finish the rest of her FAFSA application this morning.
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Urgent help needed!!!
We submitted the FAFSa form but I think we mad a mistake somewhere either in my D’s or in ours. It never requested us uploading IRS form or paycheck details.
- We first did our FAFSA form
- My D received the email
- WE filed it using her account.
Finally it gave us a message that your parent are not willing to contribute your college funds etc
Did we do something wrong?
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I may be misunderstanding your post, but where did you find clear instructions not to describe extracurricular activities?
In the UC application, students choose two write about four of the eight PIQ prompts. They get 350 words so it is short and sweet. Applicants are instructed to get to the point and to avoid trying to set a scene or flowery language.
Below each PIQ, there are things to consider. Those things to consider tend to direct a student to answer why the topic is important to them, how it impacted them, how it might have influenced their plans for the future, etc. I wouldn’t interpret that as digging deep outside of their tangible accomplishments.
The UC PIQ are a place to provide clarity, context and depth about four topics. They want to know about applicant’s accomplishments, talents, interests and experiences. The Activity & Awards (A&A) section is where a student should provide details about what they did. The PIQ is where students have the opportunity to expand on why they did it, how it impacted them, and what they learned from the experience.
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I think your entire comment is spot-on, and I especially appreciate the section I’ve quoted above. Thank you for sharing. I’ve also observed this phenomenon — in real life and in forums like these.
One thing I’ve noted this application cycle is that top schools and programs are looking for SO MUCH MORE than stats alone.
Two of the schools/programs my son has been accepted to/moved forward in the process wrote the following in the decision letters:
“Our selection team enjoyed learning about your interests and activities” and “Everyone who reviewed your application was inspired by your passion, determination, accomplishments and heart.”
Both of these sentences clearly indicate that the programs’ decisions are not based on stats alone — they are absolutely emphasizing a holistic review.
Of course, the stats have to be strong, but taking 10 APs vs 6 APs or having a 1570 vs a 1520 doesn’t necessarily make the former the stronger applicant.
When people at cocktail parties or behind a computer make assumptions about an applicant based on stats alone, they are being unfair at best.
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The video sessions that I saw, the advice was not to redescribe the ECs. They did not say the PIQs should not be based on the ECs. But many students use that valuable space to restate the EC without adding any additional insight. This actually was mentioned as a common mistake in all the UC PIQ presentations.
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One of the more recent YCBK episodes talked about this a bit. I thought it was really informative. The main message I got out of it were these things:
- Colleges don’t OWE it to you to admit you.
- Colleges have their own institutional priorities which often have absolutely nothing to do with you. Maybe your rejection was them trying to protect their yield. Or maybe they wanted to increase the # of male history majors and you’re a female history major. Or maybe the other student who got in who you think is ‘beneath you’ in terms of GPA, test scores, extracurriculars got in because the other kid plays the oboe, and the college orchestra needs an new incoming oboe player next year, and YOU don’t play the oboe.
- Just because you applied to every top 20 college doesn’t increase the odds of you getting admitted to ONE of them. If Harvard has a 3% admit rate and Yale has a 9% admit rate (I’m making those numbers up), you do NOT have total % change of getting in to either of 12%.
(soap box time)
This is my own personal view point and it’s directed at anyone here…
I cannot stand arrogant people. I don’t like having to work with them at work. I don’t like having to hang out with them and spend time with them. Same can be said for individuals with an elitist attitude…the idea that this person or that person is somehow better than somebody else because they got into Harvard, Princeton, or Yale or wherever.
If your kid gets into an elite school, you SHOULD be proud. It’s quite an accomplishment. Your kid should be proud. But being a little humble as well could go a long way.
About 8 years ago where I work, we were asked to interview a Harvard grad for one of our open positions. He had zero work experience or anything in the particular area required for this job, but thought that because he went to Harvard, it meant that we would hire him. He was arrogant and clueless. The culture of our work team was the total opposite of that…collaborative. He came in with the attitude that he was this big shot because he’d graduated from an Ivy League college.
We did not hire him.
Are all Harvard grads like this? Of course not.
It’s not about where you go, it’s about what you do when you get there and what you do when you get out of there that matters.
Parents, in general, also need to get it out of their heads that where their kid gets into college is some sort of report card on their parenting. So in the coming months, don’t automatically quiz every other senior parent you know to ask them where Suzy or Johnny is going to college. Ask them what the kid’s plans are for graduation instead. And then WHATEVER that parent says in reply, act interested, be gracious, and say something like “Oh, that sounds great! Tell me more!”
The parents of kids who are going to trade school and the military will be grateful. so will the parents of kids who are going to community college first.
Quit acting like it’s the end of the world.
Yesterday, my younger daughter & I volunteered with the “Welcome to America Project” in Tempe, AZ. We served on a team of other volunteers who did “Saturday Welcomes,” which involved delivering furniture and household items to refugee families who are brand new to America. We made deliveries to 4 families yesterday…1 from Afghanistan and the rest were from Rwanda. Our translator explained to a young Rwandan mother how to use a vacuum cleaner for the first time. With another family, he explained to them how to use a microwave.
And I gotta say…that was one of the most amazing and uplifting things I’ve experienced in a long time. It puts all of the college application frenzy into perspective. Is your life over because you didn’t get into your ED school? No. Is my kid’s life over because there’s no way on earth that she’d ever get into the U of A honors college with a 3.22 unweighted GPA? No.
by comparison, the eldest daughter of 1 of the Rwandan families is 21. Her main focus is to learn english so she can get a job and help support her parents and 5 other younger siblings…why? The dad said (through the translator) “So we can be self-sufficient.”
There are multiple paths to success. There isn’t just one. Everything will work out in the long run. It’s all going to be ok. Take a deep breath once in awhile. Don’t panic.
(end soap box)
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This is an interesting article.
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So interesting that there’s a thread devoted to the topic. Let’s keep comments on that thread
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Honestly, this is one of the many reasons why I ignore most grousing about “top students” getting deferred or rejected.
It’s amazing how many essays do not actually answer the prompt.
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I consider posts like that not only appropriate, but vital, not least in one of these parent threads.
On the subject of essays, I think the Yale Admissions Podcast really nailed the fundamental issue of how these essays often require a type of reflective writing that many of these kids simply have no meaningful experience with. So they often slip back into a more expository or creative mode, because they have done that with success before. And to them, reflective writing feels awkward, cringey, risky . . . better to go with what they know. But that can then be a missed opportunity to give the college something that really adds to the application, and in a worst case (like the above) it may subtract.
On a more positive note, I think almost all of these kids are capable of writing reflectively in a compelling and personal way–eventually, with enough encouragement, enough time, and most importantly with an understanding of what they are really being asked to do. I therefore really feel for the kids who are not getting that understanding from their parents, their school officials, and so on. They truly believe they are doing everything right, because that is what they have been told.
Which we can’t fix for everyone, but to circle back to the beginning–the more we spread this understanding in places like this, hopefully the more parents, and eventually the more kids, will have a better idea of what they are really being asked to do.
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There was a question under Student Unusual Circumstances (question 7 on the FAFSA® paper version) that said “answer no if one of your parents will provide their information to complete the FAFSA”. If you answered yes that meant you would be evaluated for direct unsubsidized loans ONLY. I read that one twice because it was Yes, my parents won’t disclosure information or No, they will disclose information. Could it have been that question?
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