Parents: Our Son Could Go To Ivy But Refuses. Advice?

Parents Forum
1

We are immigrants from India. I am an engineer and have a very academically talented son. From reading the CC boards, it seems to me that he would be extremely competitive in Ivy-league/equivalent admissisions. It has been my dream as well as that of his mother that he would someday go to Harvard or MIT or Stanford. Frankly, we pushed him hard but only because we knew he could handlle it. He has gotten top marks in his school, won every kind of award, has ECs that would stand out. Knowing what we were doing, we pushed him to become an ideal HYPSM applicant. We know he would find success if he would apply to those schools. We know there is a lot of luck involved, but we feel that he would be admitted to a Top 10 school.

Finances will be a slight problem, but we know we can borrow any shortfall to send him to the best school that he can be admitted. so even the tiptop schools can be afforded if we are willing to take on the debt. We are willing because we feel that it will help him reach his dreams.

He is refusing, and has given us the following reasons:

  1. He says that he would rather go to a school where is is far above the average student so that he can get top grades more easily than he could at a school like MIT or Stanford where every single student (or close to that) is a huge academic talent. He believes that he can be top-of-class at a lower university and this will do more for him than middle- or bottom-of-class in HYPSM. He is not sure that he can work hard enough to be top of class at HYPSM and feels he will be miserable is he is average or worse.
  2. He feels he can get Full Ride Scholarship to a number of adequate universities, and partial scholarship at some pretty good ones. He has probably qualified for NMSF or NMF based on his PSAT scores in out state. Plus, with his GPA/SAT combinations, he will proably qualify for going to school at a very affordable rate and graduate with no debt. He says that the debt is a problem, even though it is us, his parents, who will take on the debt.
  3. If he wants to apply to graduate school, including law school or medical school, he says GPA is everything. He would rather have a 4.0 from an easier school than struggle to make a 3.5 at a top school.He says that for the top graduate schools, undergrad GPA is much more important that a famous university.

His mother and I don’t know what to think. We hope that the CC community can educate us parents on our thinking errors, or educate our boy on the way the world works. We all appreciate any and all advice. Thank you all!

2

In my opinion, your son has a very good head on his shoulders. Especially if he wants to go to graduate school, he should look towards going to a good school for undergraduate where he can graduate with little or no debt and get good grades. I know you said you would bear the burden of the debt, but how will your son fund medical school or law school if you are so burdened by undergraduate debt you can’t help him?

Let him find schools that fit what he is looking for, and then sit down and have a family discussion. It would be great if more high school students were so realistic about college, instead of expecting their parents to sacrifice their hopes of ever retiring to pay for a “dream school”. There are plenty of schools that will challenge him without overwhelming him, and where he’ll get a great education. Maybe you compromise and he still applies to an Ivy or two, but please let him at least explore this path.

3

He should apply where he wants, Ivy or not.

It is a mistake for anyone to live during adolescence in a way that is geared to getting into Ivies, resume building and so on. You have been building a profile, and perhaps he hungers for something more authentic.

Other than that, his reasoning is very wise and mature and practical. I hope you can be proud of him. He will do well wherever he goes. Good luck!

4

Don’t forget that this is your son’s education. Parents are obviously a big influence and source of direction in such decisions, but if your son feels as if he would be happier at a different school, it’s important to take his concerns seriously. There are MANY schools aside from the Ivy League and the widely perceived “Ivy equivalents” that can offer an amazing undergraduate education. He seems to be approaching this subject in a very rational way, and I think you should listen to him.

5

@SanjayinSanJose, until your son has specific schools to pick from, it’s tough to say what to do.

I went to a top-10 LAC for undergrad and Harvard for grad school, and unfortunately his reasons re: GPA are true; for grad school admissions, I would rather be #1 in my class from my LAC instead of middle of the pack at Harvard.

However, he shouldn’t underestimate himself, and it’s tough to say what his GPA will be at a specific school. I made As in my major at my LAC, and when I cross-registered at Harvard and took classes in the same field, I also got an A. Basically, if you know the material, you’ll get an A, whether at Harvard or Podunk State College; if you don’t know the material, you won’t, regardless of where you go to school.

So I would just address this question when he’s applying and getting into specific schools. If he gets into Harvard and wants to turn it down for a university that really is unacceptable, if I were you, I’d refuse to pay for the other university.

When I was looking at law schools, I narrowed my choice to a top-5 one and a top-10 one (before getting into Harvard). My parents wanted me to go to the top-5 one, but I preferred the top-10 one. They let me pick and I picked the top-10 one (before getting into Harvard). Once I made the choice, I felt just absolutely awful and regretted it; thank goodness I then got into Harvard, since my choice would have affected me for the rest of my life, probably. Basically, he shouldn’t be the only one to pick the school; if you really think that he’s making a bad choice, refuse to pay the tuition.

6

What dream does he have that requires a HYPSM degree?

7

My advice would be to apply to a wide range of schools including some where you think he would thrive. See where he gets accepted and attend accepted students day at his top choices. Then the decision should be his.

8

Is this for real? Lol, usually it’s the other way around, the kid wants the Ivy and the parents say go where the money is. It sounds like your son is being practical. Let him go where the cost is least and where he’ll be most happy. It sounds like he intends to go to grad school at a top university anyway. And there’s no guarantee that he could get into an Ivy - those schools reject “perfect” applicants all the time because there are so many that apply. Be glad of your son’s abilities and his wanting to save your money. And I think he will realize that he can find challenges wherever he goes - he may not be able to just breeze through college on roller skates just because his SAT scores are at the top of the pack.

9

I just have to say…wow I am totally impressed with your son and hoping my son thinks the same way. No Ivy is worth going into all that debt…not a one!

10

I think that making false assumptions runs wild in your family. Neither you or your son seems to have a good grasp of the reality of today’s colleges.

11

Who is living who’s life?

Your son is wise. He has figured out what it is going to take to keep a high GPA in college. He has figured out he doesn’t want to take $250,000 in debt to get a bachelor’s degree, then spend upwards of $200K for med school.
He’s right.

12

You’ve raised a son with a good head on his shoulders.

“3. If he wants to apply to graduate school, including law school or medical school, he says GPA is everything. He would rather have a 4.0 from an easier school than struggle to make a 3.5 at a top school.He says that for the top graduate schools, undergrad GPA is much more important that a famous university.”

If your son TRULY wants to go to med school, then he’s right. If he gets a 3.5, then he likely will not get into med school as a traditional applicant …especially if he’s considered to be a ORM.

Med schools don’t care about where you went to undergrad…they care about GPA and MCAT scores…and schools like ivies and MIT do not prepare kids for med school or the MCAT.

Med school is very expensive…if your son can save by attending a less expensive undergrad, then super.

And if he does eng’g, then he’s fine to graduate from his own flagship or some other school that will give him large merit for his stats.

Sounds like you’re in Calif…if so, then what’s your beef against UCLA or Berkeley???

13

@xiggi‌ I see where the parents’ thinking may be faulty, but what’s wrong with the son’s?
Doesn’t it make sense to do undergrad for free, especially if you’re looking at graduate school?

14

There is a broad array of Universities which would fall in to the “adequate” category which would provide a wonderful academic environment for your son. Schools with acceptance rates of 25-30%, still quite selective with high average SAT scores, etc., would still be academically challenging, but far more likely to offer him significant merit aid. There are many good LACs, highly ranked state universities and technical schools where your son would thrive and could save his family a lot of money. He is very mature to wish to protect your family’s financial future.

My oldest daughter refused to consider any ivies, even though she had the stats for a shot at them, NMF, etc. Her high school was a pressure cooker and after 4 years of intense competition, she was feeling burned out and she did not wish to be in that type of over the top environment any longer. She attends a highly ranked LAC with an admission rate of 30%, with a full-ride scholarship, double majoring in Biochemistry and Computer Science, loves her classes, finds them challenging, and has had great opportunities for research in a lab along with paid summer internships. She couldn’t be happier and plans to pursue a PhD. Her school has excellent advising and career counseling and many graduates end up at ivies for graduate programs.

Not attending an ivy for undergrad will not hamper your son in any way, and in fact he may end up with better opportunities for research, internships, etc. which would make him a standout for graduate programs or his future job search. I wouldn’t recommend applying to schools with super high acceptance rates, perhaps 60% +), because he may not feel challenged enough, but there is a lot of ground between that and the single digit acceptance percentages of most ivies. Many less selective schools also have honors programs which would academically challenge your son.

Your efforts (along with your son’s) to provide with excellent educational opportunities thus far will not be wasted. Getting a full-ride to any school is becoming more difficult each year, with college price tags approaching absurd levels. Many other parents will be jealous of your son and his family. It is truly a gift not to have large bills to finance each semester. My daughter actually gets a check each semester, because she also received a small NMF scholarship.

15

I am very impressed by how very thoughtfully your son has mapped out his education strategy and is not simply another mindless “prestige ho”. He’s not “settling” but has a grounded, far-seeing vision for his future. You should be very proud of him.

If grad/professional school is his goal, then his strategy of finishing at the top of his undergraduate school and conserving cash is the wiser one.

16

Your son is right. And Malcolm Gladwell agrees with him.
http://www.businessinsider.com/malcolm-gladwell-if-you-want-a-science-or-math-degree-do-not-go-to-harvard-2013-9

Here’s his interview with Anderson Cooper on “60 Minutes”:
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/malcolm-gladwell-power-of-the-underdog/

He says the assumption in America that students should go to most prestigious school they get into is simply wrong.

Malcolm Gladwell: If you go to an elite school where the other students in your class are all really brilliant, you run the risk of mistakenly believing yourself to not be a good student. Right? So you—

Anderson Cooper: Even if—

Malcolm Gladwell: Even if you are. Right? It doesn’t—if you’re last in your class at Harvard, it doesn’t feel like you’re a good student, even though you really are. It’s not smart for everyone to want to go to a great school.

Anderson Cooper: So if you had a child, would you want them to go to Harvard?

Malcolm Gladwell: No, of course not. I’d want them to go to school in—to a state school in Canada where their tuition would be $4,000 a year.

Malcolm Gladwell: If Harvard is $60,000 and University of Toronto where I went to school is maybe six. So you’re really telling me that education is 10 times better at Harvard than it is at University of Toronto? That seems ridiculous to me.

17

For medical and law school, what he says is generally the case. See http://lawschoolnumbers.com for law school (and note that only top 14 ranked law schools are worth paying for, due to the weak law job prospects for graduates of lower ranked law schools). To be a realistic applicant for medical school, a GPA > 3.6 or so is likely necessary. Of course, both types of professional school require high test scores (MCAT or LSAT). However, it is true that more selective schools (though not all of them) tend to have higher grade inflation – see http://www.gradeinflation.com (list of schools at the bottom). Given the selectivity of medical and top 14 law schools, he needs to consider his alternative plans if he does not get admitted to any. Neither medical nor law school requires any specific undergraduate major, although medical school requires pre-med course work.

Both are also very expensive. You and he should take a look at https://www.aamc.org/download/152968/data/debtfactcard.pdf and note how long it takes to repay typical medical school debt. Also, in California, the in-state public medical schools are highly competitive, so he may only be able to get into more expensive private medical schools (if he gets into any at all), resulting in higher cost and debt. For a student who is focused on medical or law school, saving money for undergraduate and applying the savings to medical or law school can be an option to avoid the heavy debt burden when starting one’s professional career.

PhD programs worth attending should be fully funded, so paying for them should not be an issue if he graduates with a bachelor’s degree with little or no debt. To the extent that admissions depends on the undergraduate school, it is more based on strength of major, as the PhD department sees it (note that some majors at some schools may have a strong reputation to employers, but less so to PhD programs, and vice-versa). However, it can be difficult for a high school student applying to colleges to assess departmental strengths.

Regarding costs, if you are not in the top 3% or so income levels, you may be eligible for financial aid at many schools. You can try running the net price calculators at the super-aid schools (HYPSM), in-state public universities (UCs and CSUs, assuming that you are in California), and other private and public schools of interest, to get an idea of what they are actually likely to cost. For merit scholarships and other low cost options, follow the links in this post: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/1678964-links-to-popular-threads-on-scholarships-and-lower-cost-colleges.html .

Regarding debt, it is generally not a good idea for parents to take on substantial debt to fund kids’ college education (uncommon exceptions would be things like avoiding immediate liquidation of a large asset that the parents do not want to liquidate at that time but will later to pay off the debt). That implies that you do not really have the money, and will be dependent on him supporting you in your retirement if you are unable to save for retirement due to paying off the debt you incurred for his school. Given that not all college graduates immediately make high incomes, and many medical and law school graduates have to pay off their own loans over a decade or more, depending on him to support you in your retirement would be a bad idea.

One caution for him is that being an outlier at the top of his class at a very small school may be an unsatisfying academic experience, if there are too few others like him for the school to offer appropriately challenging academic offerings. This is likely to be less of a problem at a large school, where there are more likely to be enough like him for the school to offer things like honors courses or other challenging options.

18

" It has been my dream as well as that of his mother that he would someday go to Harvard or MIT or Stanford. "

Why those specific schools?

19

OP, I think your S has a very good head on his shoulders for his age, assuming that he has had a very clear career goal already. If he has what it takes to succeed, he will succeed from anywhere.

However, if both he and you (especially he) strongly believe he is really capable in academics (as evidenced by all or at least most of the following: he is likely among the top 5 students graduated from the most competitive public high school in , say, the Bay Area, and his PSAT/SAT are or are close to 240/2400, and all AP tests taken are 5s), and the financial status of your family is good enough to send him to a flagship public college, I would suggest that he attends a top public college, e.g., to be in one of the competitive majors at Cal or UCLA if you live in California.

The caliber of the college (which may not be the same as the prestige of the college) still count for something among the very top of college graduates when applying to grad schools. That is, it is still more convincing to the adcoms of top grad schools if your S will be graduated as a student among the top 5% of a college like Cal or UCLA, than as one at a podunk college which may give your S a lot of money to entice him to go there. There may be some inbred and incest among graduate schools but a top 5% graduate from a flagship school like U Mich, Cal, etc., will still likely be a very competitive applicant to most very top grad schools.

Note that I said that to demostrate that you are a very top student, you may only need to be among the top 5% of your state flagship college (and also comparable standard test scores like LSAT or MCAT). But to demonstrate that you are an equally competitive high school student, you may need to be one of the top 5 (or at least 10) students at a top high school in a very good school district. If the best high school students attend a magnet school (like in NYC), a top high school may need to be one of the magnetic schools in NYC. I noticed that even a val/sa from a non-magnetic high school in NYC could not compete successfully against, say, a top 10 student from a magnetic high school after they are in the college (a flagship public college or a top private.)

This is just my subjective opinion.

20

Sanjay, your post is misleading. It’s not as though he has these acceptances in hand and is refusing. He’s just a competitive candidate for all, that’s all. Big deal. He could apply to all 3 and not get in any and poof, there goes your “dream.”

I have to ask though.

Why is your dream explicitly “HYPSM” as opposed to your dream being “goes to a really excellent school and has a great life”? I suspect that you are far overvaluing the power of certain schools merely because you’ve heard of them.