Parents: Our Son Could Go To Ivy But Refuses. Advice?

Parents Forum
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  1. Going to college is like entering a four-year marriage. You could have a great marriage, and consider those four years the best years of your life, or you could have a comfortable marriage that you speak well of. Or if you don’t do your research, you could have a barely acceptable marriage that you are waiting four years to be over. As much consideration into a college should be made as in picking your future spouse.

  2. Many students would do well at many colleges (contrary to the marriage analogy! though I’ve seen some papers about being a good spouse depends more on you and less on your spouse!). However, the most important aspects of college for any particular student should be considered first and foremost, which usually are NOT academic or prestige concerns.

  3. The “Ivy/anti-Ivy” bias is a microcosm of the “college/anti-college” bias. The only issue I have with either side is being binary about it - must go to an Ivy or must not go to an Ivy. The amount of diversity among the Ivies is significant enough that the most hung up analytical person or the most relaxed granola person would be happy at an Ivy, but probably different Ivies (we had both extremes where I went). People who impugn Ivies are like people who impugn college at all, that it is for someone too lazy to work after high school like normal people do. Can’t we all just agree that different people are on different paths, and what might work for one person, might not work for another?

If a family has a few hundred dollars to spare on application fees, their senior in HS should apply to five or more colleges which include at least one safety and one reach. Not applying for a reach is almost as bad as not applying for a safety. It is also wise if there is any possibility of a financial aid issue to have a few rolling admission schools as backups, or apply to one school which has an automatic scholarship based on test scores and/or GPA.

As for the question of “my child is ruining his life because he refuses to apply to Ivies”, if he wouldn’t go, he is just saving you application fees. Why must you live vicariously through your child? Does it reflect poorly on his parents if he does not go to an Ivy?

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An aside, but are you saying there is only one potential excellent spouse for each person in the world? I sure don’t believe that… And I do agree that many students would do well at many colleges.

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The whole point is that Ivy is a meaningless designation when it comes to looking at excellent / elite schools. It’s about as meaningless as what the school colors are.

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Indeed. And the “college/anti-college bias” seems on first glance more intellectually honest. (i) The Ivy League is an athletics conference; (ii) all colleges are alike in that they are bureaucratic, inefficient machines run with money (no, not with “freethinking” or “rigorous thought”); (iii) the “pro-Ivy” and “anti-Ivy” positions are both nonsensical. Some claim that “anti-Ivy bias” is a response to or correction for “Ivy bias.” I point them to the story of the Madman of Seville in Don Quixote. Is trading one madness for another rational, ye lofty rational beings?

These “biases” would be OK, not even worth noting, if people did not pretend to adhere to “logical” rules. I don’t know. Perhaps everyone is trying to replicate Hegel’s historical dialectic (in rhetoric) or imbibing Mill’s belief in the “Marketplace of Ideas.” I think Nietzsche’s and Sir Thomas Browne’s views on truth and argument are more pragmatic here. But I’m a fool: what do I know?

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I would like my son (and so would he) to go to an Ivy (or one of a few other highly selective schools). I would like to ask parents with kids in such schools what they think got their kids in. But I am afraid to ask that question as I am afraid I will immediately get several very rude responses as to why my goal is typical of someone who just fell off the turnip truck.

My reasons (and that of my son) for college preference are personal and not up for debate, nor would I ask for opinion on such from anyone. I would also never imply that life is horrible outside of my preferred list of colleges. Yet I am afraid to ask my question, as there is a strong anti-Ivy bias in the Parents forum.

That is unfortunate as I could have really benefited from the experience of parents whose kids went to highly selective schools. I am sure the same is true for many other parents who don’t ask their questions from fear of being lynched by a very vocal anti-Ivy crew in the Parents forum. I would request the moderators to reign in these very biased folks who in my opinion are ruining this forum.

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There is not a “strong anti-ivy” bias. But patents are the ones spending the $, so are looking at all variables.

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It depends on your perspective. A smaller portion of posters are extremely in to attending ivies on the parents forum than on many of the other forums of this site. However, I’d expect a much larger portion of posters on the parents forum are extremely in to their kids attending ivies than among the overall US population. Similarly a much larger portion of posters have kids who are attending or have attended ivies than among the overall US population.

If you post your question, you will likely get responses that you find helpful, as well as responses that you do not find helpful. If you cannot tolerate seeing the latter, then you probably aren’t going to have a good experience in participating in online discussions, on this site or others. Also note that there is an ignore list option in the control panel that makes selected posters invisible for you.

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@JustOneMom‌
Go ahead and create a thread. I’ll respond and not rudely.

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@JustOneMom,

We (and our child) did the following:

Moved into a school district and the “best” school in that district which regularly sends about multiple (say, 5 to 8 ) kids there every year.

Found the qualifications (as much as we could) of these students. Identified some students (in the past several years) whose qualifications were similar to your child’s.

Generally, for students with the same background as our kid, e.g., they had the ECs of the same caliber as our kid, they were usually one of the top 3 or 4 kids among the class size of 600 and likely had the SAT around 2300, 800 or close to 800 SAT subject tests and about 10 AP 5s. (In DS’s class year, everyone of the top 3 got into exactly one of HYPSM. Another rank-18 one also got into one if these 5 schools. 3 others got into other Ivies or schools like CalTech. No kids out of the top 20 got into these schools. About 100 among the 600 graduates would attend the flagship public college. There were actually fewer kids in that class who got into these schools.

The EC achievement should be at the state competition level (a major one, not an obscure one), usually for multiple years (3 or even 4 years, at least 2 years before the application.)

Many could start their ECs as young as 4-5 years old (e.g., music instrument.)

Show the strength in one (or at most two) school-related subjects. These schools tend to want a well rounded class, not well rounded applicants.

It helps quite significantly if applying SCEA (or ED, if FA is not a concern, or having some confidence in these school’s FA policies.)

Lastly, some luck is definitely involved.

This “strategy” may be quite outdated (>8 years old, I think.)

Hopefully, this info could be of use to you, JustOneMom.

Just want to add: Try as you can but do not think too much about this process too early. We always thought DS would attend our IS flagship or an IS private when he was growing up. It was actually one year before the application cycle was started that we thought DS could have some chance (when the rank and the list of ECs were mostly “fixed”, and we could compare his qualifications against those of the students from his own high school who were graduated a few years earlier.) Still, we did not apply to many such “reach for everybody” schools. (because we thought it would be more realistic if he pinned his hope on the top LACs which are good fits for him also. He only applied to one of HYPSMBDCCP - you could see his attitude regarding these reach-y schools from this: He did not care that much if he did not get in there in the end.)

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@JustOneMom, why don’t you go to the forums of the specific Ivies you and your son are interested in and ask for advice there if you’re uncomfortable posting questions in the Parents Forum?

Honestly, I don’t think there is a an “anti-Ivy” bias here at all, unless someone comes in with an “Ivy or bust” attitude or is really vague about their student’s stats/profile and why they want to attend “an Ivy.”

Be specific about what you’re looking for, and most parents will attempt to be helpful, but realize that when you post something vague like wanting your child to go to “an Ivy (or one of a few other highly selective schools),” without explaining which schools you’re talking about, and why specifically you’re targeting them, you’re going to invite a lot of unwanted questions.

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[QUOTE=""]
That is unfortunate as I could have really benefited from the experience of parents whose kids went to highly selective schools. I am sure the same is true for many other parents who don't ask their questions from fear of being lynched by a very vocal anti-Ivy crew in the Parents forum. I would request the moderators to reign in these very biased folks who in my opinion are ruining this forum.<<<

[/QUOTE]

I am not sure that such description fits the board I’ve known for more than a decade. People do not get lynched for asking questions. Some might get a tad surprised by the strong positions. The ones who come to preach about positions that have been debunked over and over do not fare that well.

Ask questions about why Wharton is a great program or why Dartmouth is different from Columbia, and you will get plenty of sensible answers. Come here to let us know how great Amy Chua is and you might find the reception lukewarm.

In general, one can expect sensible responses to genuine questiins. The parents’ is a dichotomy as it can be elitist in certain ways and very realist about what HYPS should mean to students.

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Justonemom…start your own thread with your questions. There are many folks here who have been through this process.

I will say, I heard a terrific interview of Ivy students on NPR one morning. They were asked what they thought got them accepted to their Ivy school (these were all Ivy students). Almost none could pinpoint anything special about their application. In fact, most said they had no idea what set their application apart from others. Some were even surprised they were accepted.

I say…apply where you choose. If selective schools are your goal, then go for it.

But my free advice is…cast a wide net, and include some schools that are more sure things than all of the highly competitive ones…just in case those don’t work out.

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Yes, anyone looking at applying to super-selective colleges needs to start the application list with a safety that s/he will be admitted to, will be able to afford, and will like to attend. It is not out of the question to get zero admissions to a large list of super-selective colleges.

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Anti-Ivy bias?

http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Oh-Wait-Your-Serious-Let-Me-Laugh-Even-Harder-On-Futurama.gif

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That’s absurd. Sorry if that comes across as rude, but IMO it is really over the top. Yes, it can be difficult to transfer and yes sometimes there’s less financial aid available. But it is by no means as important a decision as whom to marry.

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Will this be slightly better? LOL

“as much consideration into a college should be made as in picking your girlfriend/boyfriend?”

If this is still over the top, change “girlfriend/boyfriend” to “candidate for the first date”.

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@mcat Maybe picking top schools based on ranking alone is like hitting on a girl just because she’s got a great body and long blonde hair, lol.

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Well, to a large extent the problem with the marriage analogy is that you can (and I think most people would agree should) date someone for a significant period of time before entering into marriage. Despite the romantic stories and movies, those that don’t usually have a disaster on their hands fairly shortly. There really is no equivalent when it comes to universities. With colleges, while you can read the stats and other peoples opinions of the schools, most people can’t do more than go on one date (an overnight visit) and most cannot even do that. And I think we could all agree that even an overnight visit might be closer to just being introduced to the person and hanging out for a short time as opposed to a real date. So while I agree with the sentiment, the ability to actually experience such a process is really not possible.

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The most-read threads on this site are about the Ivies, so I don’t know what you are talking about.

Obviously, bazillions of kids apply to highly selective schools every year. Worst thing that happens–you ask your question and don’t get responses you want. Then you move on. I really don’t see what the big deal is.

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@albert69, If what you wrote is true, DS’s experience is that, aftet he has successfully hit on that fictious blonde girl (i.e., the college itself) you mentioned, he would have a very long and dry 4 years without having a chance to hit on any other (real) girl. LOL. (He once blamed it on 1) the lack of experience/practice in high school due to focusing on study too much 2) did not drink in college.)