So, you would like to solicit the advice of strangers on a public Internet forum, but only to the extent they address you in the manner of your choosing? I think you would be better off backing away from the keyboard and hiring a reputable college admissions counselor.
The part where you are coming out and asking for advice on getting your kid into these schools. There really is no reason other than prestige, the only variant might be who you are trying to impress. People back in a home country that your kid may never live in again? Grandparents? Other parents in your community? Yourself? Focusing on just that top list just comes off as ignorant to posters who have been around for a long time and been through a couple of admissions cycles. As @Pizzagirl said, no one would criticize a balanced list with a few top schools on it that appear to actually match the kid’s interests and personality, but also some reasonable matches and safeties. It is the “blinders on, all-in Ivy/S/M” attitude that is annoying.
The only posters I can respect this type of approach from might be international students who need a lot of aid. Four Ivies plus MIT & Amherst are the only schools that are need blind AND guarantee to meet need for international students. They have a legitimate reason for focusing on those schools. For everyone else, it is just name-brand pursuit if you really think those are the only schools worth applying to or attending, and they all seem equally good for the same student.
@intparent, Imagine you are new to New York and trying to get to someplace in downtown. You get into the subway station and ask someone for directions. The person can have 3 answers:
- Take this train, and that connection, and then walk 3 blocks east - voila! and you are there.
- Sorry, can't help you as I have never been to that place.
- What is wrong with you!? Why do you want to go to that place? Is it just for prestige? Why can't you go to this other place uptown? Your attitude is so annoying.
Which one of the above three responses do you think is completely inappropriate?
Earlier someone told me to just move on if I don’t like someone’s anti-Ivy bias. Why can’t the people who are anti-Ivy move on as well? There is an ignore funcion on this board. Why not use it if something annoys you?
I think there’s a lot of regional biases. I am originally from another region outside of the Northeast and I would say that most people don’t even know what the Ivies include outside of HYP…People on the West Coast would rather go to UCLA than the lower Ivies. The “Ivies” don’t mean anything to most people outside of the Northeast.
As for the OP - can you afford to pay 200k+ in tuition without worry/digging into limited savings? It appears not - you say you might have to borrow to pay for it? If you aren’t rich (at least 2/3mm liquid), I don’t get why you’re not encouraging him to take a full ride at a decent school. Money >>> going to a slightly higher ranked school, assuming the same major. The entire point of getting an education is to make money and to have money, isn’t it? Money matters more than anything (except health). The education system is so screwed up in part because of the mentality that “prestige/ranking matters more than anything” that poor/middle class are paying a lot of money for no real reward/benefit. What’s far more prestigious and practical than what school you went to is how much money you have. So don’t go into debt for no benefit. Remember - money rules the roost in the real world.
I am not anti-Ivy. That is laughable, actually. I am saying that each Ivy has a VERY different vibe and strength in different majors. Also, given the very low acceptance rates, student are generally better served by finding matches and safeties FIRST that they can be happy with, THEN focusing in on schools that have acceptance rates in the single digits. If you want someone to just say “yes” to your focus in your college search, go pay a college consultant (but you might have to look hard to find one who will think you have an appropriate focus). Don’t come to a public forum for advice. I notice you are quite defensive, and don’t seem to want to give a reason why you are just focused on those schools. I get that kids are this way sometimes, they sometimes have a shallow view and only see the “name brand”. But parents should know better. I would think you would feel some responsibility to make sure your kid has an acceptance at schools where they will hopefully be able to meet their academic goals and be happy. It would certainly be partly your fault if he/she has no acceptances in spring of senior year, or if they end up at a match/safety that wasn’t carefully considered because you as a parent couldn’t shake the prestige pursuit long enough to help your kid take a more balanced view. If your kid gets into an Ivy that is a great fit and affordable for your family, that is great! But your approach is a high risk way to approach the college search, and often has poor results.
These were legitimate questions to ask (to reflect upon by yourself.)
For me,
People back in a home country: No. Even I did not go back there for ages. DS has zero memory about what is like there.
Grandparents: No, pass away. (They were actually against it when they were still around.)
Other parents in my community: No. Pretty anti-social here. Never care much about other’s opinion. (Others in my real life circle.)
Myself: There IS some truth in it, I am ready to admit. There had not been not many “bright spots” in my whole life , so can I “indulge” in it a little bit (as long as it would not “harm” my S too much as a side-effect.) Is it too much to ask him to throw in a few (but not all) schools I LIKE in his application list, considering the fact that I had paid so much for his ECs since he was a 4 yo and …and now, I have paid so many years of tuition since his freshman year in college. It does not hurt that it has a pretty good need-based FA policy.
As shallow as it may be, if he succeeded in this by the stroke of luck, years later, it COULD give him some “bonus points” when he tries to pursue that “dream girl” whose family happens to be a new immigrant family (considering what OP said about “heavens”.)
Seriously though, have you heard of the incest or inbreeding phenomenon at many grad (esp. prof) schools at these few tippy top places? It could be shallow, and it could be unfair, but who knows, it could help you. (Actually a CCer here actually told me that, in DS’s case, he believes it helped in his grad school application cycle. I personally respect his opinion so do many other CCers who knows him.) of course, there is no need to pursue an elite grad school either in some career (e.g., medicine is said to be one of these.)
Some clarifications on the Claremont Colleges.
The Claremont Colleges were founded in 1925 when the all-graduate Claremont University College (now Claremont Graduate University) was established in addition to the older all-undergraduate Pomona College.
The 5 undergrads are
Pomona College (founded 1887)
Scripps College (founded 1926)
Claremont McKenna College (founded 1946)
Harvey Mudd College (founded 1955)
Pitzer College (founded 1963)
Since the Claremont Colleges were founded in 1925 and the 4 other undergrad colleges were founded after that date, so yes, the undergrad consortium has changed throughout the years.
This is one of the best threads on CC…an oldie but classic. This student was a top notch candidate…top notch. He was rejected from every school to which he applied. He ended up taking a gap year, and applied to a different list of schools…got accepted and graduated from MIT.
BUT that first year of admissions results stung.
Absolutely, apply to all top 20 schools, or all Ivy League schools. No reason not to if that is your goal. But be alerted. This could be you.
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/96791-years-applicants-please-listen-2.html
And this
@thumper1, I tell my son that if he has never failed, then he has never tried to reach his full potential.
Okay, if you insist on this analogy, I would say, “That route you PLAN to take to Starbucks is very dangerous and may not even be feasible. You might get mugged, or never get to Starbucks at all if you go that way. This is a route that gives you a good shot at getting to Starbucks, but there are other coffee shops along the way, so if your route to Starbucks is blocked somehow, you will still have a cup of coffee in the end.” The end goal for your kid is going to college, getting a degree, and having success in work and/or grad school admissions… the risk you are running is no admissions or poor fit, resulting in transferring or very low grades or even dropping out.
Why would you think we don’t know anything about Ivies? You keep saying that… but it isn’t actually true. I could tell you a fair amount about every Ivy. But you don’t even want to know the differences… you just want to plow ahead to any or all of them because you have heard of them. Or someone else has heard of them.
@JustOneMom If someone gave me a “viola” answer for getting into an Ivy, I would think they were crazy. No one can set out one set of qualifications that will guarantee admission to an Ivy. I surely wouldn’t believe someone who said they could.
@intparent, you write: "The end goal for your kid is going to college, getting a degree, and having success in work and/or grad school admissions… "
That may be your end goal. Why do you think that is or should be the end goal for everyone?
Also, you want the discussion to focus on fit. If someone tells you that fit is unimportant to them why would you not respect that?
Can you tell me what it takes to get into each individual Ivy? Then I will be all ears.
Oh, no, not “GAmom vs MiamiDAP” “parents fight” moment all over again. LOL.
I just had the strangest dream. I was on my way to work when some stranger stopped me to ask for directions to Starbucks. I tried to help by pointing out the Peet’s right next to my subway stop and three other coffee shops nearby, but the crazy fool followed me down the street yelling at me about how she asked for Starbucks, and I must be a complete ignoramus for not knowing how to get there.
Weird, eh?
I think - to continue this analogy - would you insist on Starbucks if someone points to a great coffee place one block away but it’s local, a very well-respected place but only known within a certain circle. For example, (sorry I don’t know New York so well), say you’re in Raleigh and ask that question, I may point you instead to ‘A Cup of Joe’ for coffee and the atmosphere. or in Baltimore to ‘Piece and a Cup of Joe’ which has great coffee and sandwiches. Would you insist on Starbucks? Or are you open to trying out new places?
I’m not anti-Ivy but maybe I am a more recent convert to “outside the Ivies”. My entire family has gone the HPSM route (no one went to Y). I was the first one to go elsewhere when I went to grad school and found to my surprise that the professors were great, I truly enjoyed my time at an ACC school. I will say, there is a big difference in students (sorry ACC) but you can definitely get a wonderful education at a “lesser” school. I understand what the OP’s son meant by standing out and getting more attention from faculty. It doesn’t mean you’re actually slacking or not working to your potential - indeed, some faculty pushed me harder because they thought I could do so much better. For my doctoral program, I chose another ACC school - but the program was actually #3 in the country. I turned down #2 which was another public but highly respected university (the state was going through budget problems and it was showing up in the universities).
Justonemom, I went to a top / highly selective / elite university by CC standards and have children who are currently seniors at a top 20 uni and top 5 LAC. Why would you think I know nothing about that caliber of school?
I can think of at least one ACC school where there’s not much of a difference between its student body and HYPSM. (And it better have some good news for my household this month.)
@SlackerMomMD, I don’t drink coffee so it was just an analogy. I do know that there are several absolutely fabulous schools outside of the Ivies (Duke, UChicago, Stanford, CalTech, MIT, Berkeley, Johns Hopkins etc.). But just as people in other parts of the country have their own reasons to not apply to the Ivies, in my time I had my own reasons to not apply outside of the Ivies (nor did my DH). My son has a similar inclination. He shouldn’t have to explain the rationale behind such an inclination to anyone.
I just believe that challenging people on their reasons when they don’t want such reasons to be discussed is extremely rude. On an anonymous message board people tend to act as bullies. It is really uncalled for.
“, @pizzagirl, I ask you again - if someone asked you for direction to nearby Starbucks, would you insist on having him/her first explain to you why (s)he needs to go to a Starbucks when plain jane coffee would do just as well in your view? If they refuse to do that, would you then feel very satisfied and declare victory by saying that the guy/gal was obviously looking for prestige, likely fell off the turnip truck, hasn’t assimilated, or whatever?”
Poor analogy. There are coffee shops that are just as good, if not better, than SBX but if you were new to a neighborhood you might not know it. It’s telling that you use the expression “plain Jane” - it says that somehow you think non-Ivy is some kind of massive step down.
@Pizzagirl, Which coffee is good and which is bad is not relevant. If someone wants directions to Starbucks, then any decent person really has only two choices for response - either give them the direction or to tell them that they don’t know. It’s common courtesy.
At any rate, if your kids went to Ivies I would love to know what you think got them there. Otherwise, and please do not take this personally, I am not sure what advice you may provide to me that I will find helpful. We may argue endlessly but as adults I am sure both of us will get bored by that eventually, so why continue?