Hmmm, I hope AlapinVariation wasn’t massaging the data to make a point. Eliminating schools #1, #3, #8, #9, #10, #11, #14, #15, #16 from the Forbes top 20 list seems to misrepresent that particular ranking system pretty significantly.
Delete
Alapin is a new poster… today… gosh… does any of this seem familiar?
A challenger appears!
I choose my words carefully. Note the word “hugely” in my sentence above. It is my biased personal opinion that Yale is the finest college in the land. But I don’t think it is “hugely” superior overall to numerous other colleges–at least 30, maybe more. It is inferior to other colleges in certain respects, and in certain fields of instruction.
And why are schools like Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Amherst, MIT, Stanford, etc., so good? They are good because they have been good for a long time, and thus attract very good students and faculty. Other schools have become more good by making a concerted effort to attract better students and faculty. That doesn’t just make them seem better–it makes them actually better.
@Hunt, I agree with you, in my biased personal opinion 
I have to ask… Why is this thread still open, given the repeated attraction of posters who have been subsequently banned? I think we are at 3 now… And the OP definitely seems to have gotten what he came for.
When I saw Hunt’s original post on this, I thought I would have my two cents, but I refrained! I think that Hunt is trying to be overly gracious. If one applies criteria such as prestige, selectivity, resources, and marketability of names and degrees, the 8 schools that form the Ivy League are at the pinnacle of the industry. Add the insatiable demand from people all around the world to be part of the mystique, it is undeniable that the term Ivy League represents a formidable attraction and “carte de visite.”
Does this mean that the 8 schools are equal and offer the best programs in every aspect? Nope, and this by a fair margin. There are a number of schools --think Stanford, MIT, Caltech, Chicago and number of LACs-- that could claim better programs and experiences in various fields.
But, there is a collosal advantage for the HYP (shared with that S) is that they have the ability to consistently select 1 or 2 students from a group of 20 from a pool that is … consistently exhibiting the highest attributes and “qualifications” that resonate in the chambers of admissions committees. Like it or not, those schools have the ability to recruit and admit the students they want … and they know that those students will overwhelmingly respond with a nod.
Some love to claim that such schools could enroll a duplicate class with similar qualifications. No doubt that is true, but what is missing is that this duplicate class might very well enroll at the … direct peers and not at schools that are a few rungs below. For instance, many claim that the student body at Stanford is not distinguishable from Cal aka UC Berkeley. That part is only true in terms of the overlapping applicant’s pool. When it comes to comparisons of enrolled student, the comparison falls entirely flat as almost all ADMITTED students at both places end up enrolling at Stanford, and the number of students who enroll at Cal over Stanford can be counted with a couple of hands. Repeat that year after a year, and the image of similar student bodies becomes a figment of the imagination of the public school fanboys! Given the opportunity (and that ** means being admitted vs possibly being admitted **) most students will pick the most prestigious school on their list. And, again, the adcoms know that! Does Shaw loses sleep over Cal’s recruiting (the adcom boss one, that is, and not David) … not much. On the other hand, you better believe he tracks down every move taken at Hunt’s fav’ school!
In the end, the Ivy League is not an universal “best” choice for many individuals, but it is hard to deny that its members got their fame by accident.
This kind of makes the opposite point. You added “S” and it’s not in the Ivy League. You could add “M” for a lot of people too., it’s the absolute pinnacle for a, dare I say, STEM-ier type of student.
The “not HYP” Ivies have a ton of competition for top students. HYP maybe compete with each other, and S and M (lol), and maybe Williams and Amherst.
There was a web site that compared schools, who chose which when admitted to more than one…do you recall what it was?
You are probably thinking of Parchment, but the cross admit data is often not realistic for a variety of reasons, most notably a small sample size. Even if you do have precise and accurate cross admit data, it does not well reflect the feelings of typical students since students generally do not apply to a much more selective college unless it is one of their top picks. For example, consider a student who wants to stay near home and because of that favors University of Michigan over HYPSM… It’s unlikely that he’d apply to HYPSM… as a backup in case he is rejected by Michigan and accepted to HYPSM… , so he would instead only apply to Michigan. As a result, he does not appear in the cross admit data as someone who chooses Michigan over HYPSM… However, if that student instead favored HYPSM… over Michigan, it is far more likely that he’d also apply to Michigan as a backup in case he was rejected by HYPSM…, so we would appear in the cross admit data as choosing HYPSM… over Michigan.
These discussions always seem to degenerate into the CC equivalent of “how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?” theological debates.
Here’s my takeaway:
- HPYSMC(+any other initials of the day) are great schools.
- There are lots of other great schools out there, too.
- YMMV
- Whatever schools I went to or my kids got into are really the best and I will debate that to my last dying breath (or until my kid gets into some other school).
“But, there is a collosal advantage for the HYP (shared with that S) is that they have the ability to consistently select 1 or 2 students from a group of 20 from a pool that is … consistently exhibiting the highest attributes and “qualifications” that resonate in the chambers of admissions committees.”
Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t really see the difference (at any macro level) between acceptance rates of 5%, 10%, 15% or maybe even 20%. Either way, you can afford to be very, very selective.
“I think that Hunt is trying to be overly gracious.”
I think them fancy-schmancy Ivy League types call that noblesse oblige.
“If one applies criteria such as prestige, selectivity, resources, and marketability of names and degrees, the 8 schools that form the Ivy League are at the pinnacle of the industry.”
Again, among whom? Sorry, once you take HYP out of the equation, I just really don’t see any fundamental difference or prestige-difference or marketability-difference between the remaining 8 and Duke, Chicago, etc. Or if there is, it still has that fundamental regionality to it.
Prestige always has to be qualified with “among whom”? Middle-class strivers? The traditional social elite? People from other countries who are relying solely on general impressions and familiarity?
If anything, the traditional social elite often find the more out-of-the-way elite LACs to be more prestigious.
I am with you on that one! After all, I know better than arguing with a math major about statistics!
This said, this is where some differences might come into play. Assume your pool is 20 (or 20K) and you make the first cuts. It is safe to assume that a thick brush knocks 50 percent away at the first read, then add a same cut to bring it down to 5 (or 5K) and you start looking deeper. After deliberations, you take 2 out to leave you with 3. At this level, the differences ought to be minute and in CC terms might be about the need for an oboe player who plays Lacrosse vs a cello star who only discovered squash. Who gets the nod? Who knows, but I think that there is a huge difference if the school picks 1, 2, or all three of the last choices. And that accounts for a 5, 10, or 15% admit rate!
But again I do agree about 5 or 25 percent being the domain of the very selective schools. Not to mention that yesterday’s 20 percent is really today’s 10 percent despite having little meaningful chances at the :“admittable” level. The pools simply got bigger through technology and marketing reaches.
Not to be excessively contrarian, but one metric of the perception of prestige could be developed by looking at the ED/SCEA rates. Throughout all your years on CC, I am sure that you might have noticed how many converted to the LAC model after not getting the love by the … Ivy League dudes. Obviously, astute observers adopted a different approach and looked at the statistics with a more deliberate and sensible eye, as not everyone is drinking the IV Kool-Aid.
If all fails, we still have Hunt’s PI to guide us! 
So Hunt, do Ivy League schools then offer qualities that are merely superior to many other schools? I will settle for that.
I view the HYP group as being strong at research (driven by faculty and grad students) and poor at undergraduate instruction.
re #461 Based on what?
As has been said over and over again on this forum and elsewhere, there are 8 colleges in the Ivy League. They vary enormously. One of the many things that differ among them is the quality of undergrad instruction. My alma mater is, IMO, superb at undergrad instruction. My Ivy “kid’s” alma mater is as well.
In a recent US News survey of the quality of UG teaching at universities, the Ivies took 4 of the top 8 spots. Princeton was ranked #1. Stanford was also in the top 8. http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/undergraduate-teaching
Interesting…PRINCETON has double the number of undergrads vs grad students.
^ and Miami OH uses its #2 position on that list in almost every piece of marketing it sends out 