Parents: Our Son Could Go To Ivy But Refuses. Advice?

Parents Forum
41

"He is a very clever boy and this discussion comes from the belief in much of our immigrant South Asian community that there are maybe five schools in the world worth attending and every other one represents more and more of a compromise. Don’t know if @xiggi is an immigrant, but in our immigrant way of thinking, heaven is located in Cambridge Mass, or in Palo Alto, or in New Haven. "

I don’t know how to say this in a way that isn’t offensive, but your immigrant community just really doesn’t understand America at all. Heaven does not reside in a handful of schools. These are not heaven on earth. They are merely some of the country’s top schools, and there are plenty, plenty of others - some of which you’ve heard of, and some of which you haven’t heard of. The idea that there are five schools in the world worth attending and every other one represents more and more of a compromise is simply untrue. They don’t know what they are talking about, at all, and it is smart on your son’s part not to listen to them.

America is different. That’s why you’re here and not there. We don’t put the stock that you do in certain brand-name schools. There is nothing special about Ivy League schools - they are 8 of the top schools, but they are not the top 8, they just happen to be part of an athletic conference. There are many schools here which offer amazing opportunities. It took guts for you to come to America; now, take the initiative and learn about all the other great schools out there, and don’t be bound by the narrow constraints of people who don’t know any better.

42

I’m sure your son is bright and a great kid, but if you have had to push him significantly to get him to engage in the highest level of academics at his school, if he has scored well on standardized tests because of relentless prep, if he has pursued ECs because you pushed him to do so, then he is very much UNlike the kids I know personally who have been accepted at Ivies and Ivy equivalents. ALL of those kids took a full plate of honors and APs because they wanted the challenge and found other classes boring. (And, in fact, they usually didn’t find APs particularly challenging, either.) They pursued ECs that interested them. They were self-motivated.

I am concerned that your son seems to be interested not in the education or intellectual experience, but in the grades. Period. IMHO, that is not the way to approach one’s education. It is not simply a matter of credential accumulation and vocational training.

But in fact it sounds as if he is using the grades argument because he thinks you will find it rational, while what he really wants to do is draw breath, live a little, and find something that he actually WANTS to do. (I think that his assumptions about grading at various schools are probably off-base, though.)

43

It’s interesting, for all this talk about how CC is obsessed with HYPSM and Ivy League schools, only one person so far has sided with the parent. If anything, it seems like there’s an anti-Ivy League bias.

But in any case, I think it would be helpful if you included some of the colleges your son is thinking of applying to. We can sort of guess, since you say he wants to take advantage national merit scholarships - probably schools like Alabama, Arizona State, or USC. As far as I know, schools like Chicago, Swarthmore, or Harvey Mudd do not offer substantial merit scholarships. And at least in my opinion, the latter three schools are Ivy equivalents, and the OP’s son would probably not want to apply there.

I personally don’t think the reasons your son gave for not wanting to apply to HYPSM are very good ones. For now though, it might be good to just do more research and start forming a potential list.

44

There’s no anti-Ivy League “bias” at all. They are all great schools. What is being objected to is the naive and unsophisticated thinking that the OP reports his community shows - where only HYPSM are worth attending, and everything else is a noticeable step down / compromise. It just isn’t true. I commend the OP for being open to expanding his thinking - that’s a great sign.

45

And the notion that the kid is bucking destiny for wanting to cast a broad net is ludicrous. On the one hand- if he doesn’t apply to Yale he won’t get in. OTOH, if he does apply to Yale, he may not get in anyway. So setting up a family dynamic NOW where this becomes a topic of conversation for the next umpteen months… boy. Rough sailing.

46

A “great amount of debt” is a really bad idea in most cases, especially if he is uncertain in his educational and career path (particularly if expensive professional school like MD, JD, etc. is under consideration).

Have you look at the cost of attendance, and net price calculators if you may be eligible for financial aid, of the various schools in question (HYPSM, UCs, CSUs, other schools)?

47

I would insist that my child apply to a range of schools, including the more competitive/lottery admissions schools. I would let him choose which ones.

I would not ask him to guide his current life plan towards the goal of elite admissions. I wonder if the past you describe where you required him to make elite college admissions a life altering goal might be the reason for his unwillingness to consider the elite schools at all. If he wants to read the newspaper instead of competing in something that will go on his “record”, he should be free to do so. It might reduce his elite admission chances, but that should be OK, in this country.

I do think that your child is ahead of you in the evolution out of the immigrant culture (of which I am familiar, though my own parents, in another era, never tried to mold me to fit the mold that was prevalent among many of their peers).

But, your son is also a child, and thus, is, in my mind,on average, developmentally less fully capable of making long term decisions and weighing them against current gains. In a recent discussion with my much younger child who was resisting applying to a competitive school, I told him that he had to do everything to complete the application, but that ultimately, the decision to apply would be his. He understood my reasoning perfectly. I had no interest in making him leave his current excellent school for another school if he really didn’t want to go, but I did not want his unwillingness to write a 200 word essay or fear of being rejected to be the primary driver in his decision making. Ultimately, he did the work, but also decided he didn’t want to apply, and we withdrew his application. If your child is very clever (mine is :-), you should be able to reason with him like this, though the teenage years are more difficult.

My goal in navigating these decisions with my children is to play the role of helping them figure out what they really want, and giving my input from my knowledge of them, and children in general to help them in that process. With smart, sophisticated children, the open discussion of what the goals actually are can help in having a collaborative discussion about the differents paths of getting there, and, as you point out, our children do live in a different world from us (and that’s true, even if we aren’t immigrants), and they can be contributors to that discussion, too.

48

Does it ever occur to you that one reason that population in your motherland have this way of thinking is that they in general could have fewer opportunities than population in US?

Does it ever occur to you that this thinking, especially from parents, could give your child so much pressure that they really do not think they have a “good” life before college and maybe in college as well?

OP, These three places you mentioned are really not the only “heavens” in the world and please believe me on this. (They are really not that different from many other places.)

When our child applied to colleges 8 years or so ago, we did not encourage him to apply to any particular college (we did discourage him to apply to schools in some geographical region.) He actually completed the application to exactly one ivy school (kind of "on the side only) and also not to S and M. We did so in order NOT to give him undue pressure. He was graduated as among the top 5% of one of these colleges that you have mentioned here and continued his education at a similar grad school . If he did not go there, we would have been more than fine with whatever school he ended up with at that time. At that time, we could not bear the thought of putting more pressure on our child.

49

Here’s the obvious solution: humor one another. If you are in CA, and your son has the academic chops you claim, he will undoubtedly get into a top-tier UC, possibly with a nice Regent’s scholarship. Berkeley, UCLA, and even UCSD and others, have global reputations, and attending one as an in-state student will give your family the financial flexibility to enable your son to pursue some exciting unpaid internships and foreign study. He, on the other hand, might as well give the colleges you mentioned a stab. They are some of the wealthiest institutions on the planet, and have deep pockets that make them affordable for almost everyone. Unfortunately, talented Asian students from your area are exceedingly abundant, and the competition in admissions is brutal. You should not feel even a momentary twinge of disappointment if your son matriculates at a UC. The rest of the world envies you for being able to attend such terrific universities at in-state rates, and you never need feel embarrassed by mentioning the affiliation. The chances are that the kids who get into Stanford, MIT, and Harvard, were no better qualified than your son, but something tipped the scale in their favor. They know that; everybody realizes that nowadays. Good luck to you and your family! You all sound wonderful, and I’m sure that your son will succeed wherever he goes.

50

And, yes, one of the beauties of the American system is that it has greater flexibility than the Asian system. It is possible to have your high school counsellor tell you that shouldn’t bother going to college, ignore her, and work your way (and, directly) to being a star professor at MIT (a true story). Opportunity in America is getting tougher, but those possibilities still exist for the excellent. If your son is truly excellent, he can find the niche at a major state university that will lead him to any path he wants, still. We are currently in a fight to keep that pathy open, as a country, but it does still exist.

There are times when aiming for prestige matters in the US, too. Law school is one, but,the tippy top law schools still accept the tippy top students from nearly any solid university, so undergraduate choices are not limiting (and, since being tippy top matters, it might indeed be easier to reach the category where your professor will right, this student is in the 1% in ability at Ohio State than at Harvard).

Also, there are areas of excellence at schools that are not difficult to get into. For example, University of Washington’s computer science department is excellent, and the school is also located in a hotbed of computer talent and opportunities. Opportunities in that field might be better at UW than at Yale, or Dartmouth and maybe even Harvard. He would need to be an excellent student at UW to be respected, mediocrity would hurt him more than mediocrity at Harvard, potentially, but your son seems like a student who wouldn’t be aiming for mediocrity, anyway.

51

“OP, These three places you mentioned are really not the only “heavens” in the world and please believe me on this. (They are really not that different from many other places.)”

Mcat, thank you for saying that.

I am very fascinated by this. OP, what are the stories that you hear that make you (or your community) conclude that going to HYPSM provides nothing but untold riches and good fortune and everything else is a step down? Where do they draw that from, other than “that’s just what I’ve heard”? Truly curious, because it’s just so untrue.

52

It sounds like you are just trying to set up a college tour trip. In that case, visit as many as you can so your son can feel them out. I gotta tell you, though, the Harvard tour was one of the worst we had. It starts with a video that is all Rah Rah Harvard, look, Amy Poehler gave a commencement address! They don’t care one iota you are there, and most of the touring kids and parents look kind of miserable. The campus is ok. Beautiful in some places (the Saunders Theater where it starts is really gorgeous) and very dumpy and ugly in others. You should definitely tour just so you can revise your definition of heaven. Don’t forget to leave two hours ahead so you can circle around until you run out of gas looking for heavenly Cambridge parking. :neutral_face:

53

My gifted son is half Indian and refused to see some Ivy league schools (including Harvard when saw MIT) when H and son visited the east coast a few years ago. He also refused to apply to one. I understand where this parent is coming from and likewise his son. Our son had/has zero interest in becoming a physician like his parents.

OP- let go of the schools you have heard of as the top ones in the US. There is plenty of excellent academic life outside of those. It sounds like your son is definitely goal oriented and also smart enough to realize what it takes for medical school. There are plenty of nonIvy prestigious schools that can lead to a top medical school. Also, keep in mind that most undergrad schools and all medical schools can lead to the same goal. If he is interested in doing research he will choose undergrad schools strong in those fields and then medical schools.

There are far more gifted students with top credentials than can be accommodated by the top ranked schools. Most of these students will get excellent educations at other schools, including many state flagship U’s. Assuming your son fits the top academic profile his chances of getting into the most elite schools is low. Also- one does not need to be gifted to attend medical school. Being bright and a hard worker is the description of the vast majority of physicians.

One warning. Do not let your son try to game the system by attending a school where a “high” percentage of premed students get into medical schools. This can backfire- I know a student who chose a lesser school for this reason (over the state flagship) and did not get into schools. He did not get top grades- enjoyed college perhaps a bit too much. He needs to look at schools where he is in his academic peer group and not the top of the heap.

There is so much more to life than going to the few elite colleges. Other schools are actually better in many fields than those schools. Consider this- the professors at the Ivies are most likely educated elsewhere. Also the textbooks used are authored by professors at other schools. A check of bookstore offerings for the latter will yield information. A check of the CVs of professors will show their backgrounds.

Your son needs to enjoy his life and not just prepare for a grand future. btw- I know of Harvard medical school grads who ended up in ordinary towns doing the same work as colleagues from the state medical schools.

Your son is correct about the competition for grades and medical school. Plus, activities play a greater role than for past generations of medical students. Let your son pick a list of schools he would enjoy attending. Better grades come with being happy in school. And- who knows, he may discover there is more to life than being a physician. Often immigrant parents think being a physician is being at the top of the world or a secure future. There are many more careers than are equally if not more satisfying.

Good luck to your son in his future. Be sure he enjoys the journey and is not only focused on the end.

54

Re: college tour.

We could not afford any OOS college tour trip. We only visited one of our in-state privates.

We do not think it is worth our dimes to visit any school before our child got in. (And we were full pay parents for the first two years!)

We did visit one school our child had got in (just in case he really disliked it.)

55

Also, a sense of tone. I am assuming that you are choosing a style of writing in referring to “heaven” and titling your post “Our Son Could Go To Ivy But Refuses. Advice?”. But, it’s a style that doesn’t mesh with what you say you really want from this discussion and from your son, which is to educate yourself on the role prestige plays in the American education system. First, your title could have been, something more like “Our child could be a competitive applicant at elite schools, but refuses to apply.” As others have pointed out, you only know your child can go to an Ivy when they’ve been admitted. And no school is heaven.

56

Re #49

Washington CS is very good, but is much more competitive for admission than the school overall.

57

@warbrain‌, U of Chicago and Mudd do offer some merit (interestingly, my kid was offered some from Chicago, but not Mudd, which is where she decided to go in the end… sigh). But you are correct that the OP’s kid would not be working less hard at those schools than an Ivy.

58

Because the son’s assumptions are equally based on a romantic view of today’s college, and especially availability of scholarships. Equally baseless is the assumption of being a big fish in a small pond or the difficulty for a top student to earn high marks at the most prestigious schools.

All in all, the entire “proposal” is built on shaky grounds and illusions. Nothing really changes in how a student who is purported to be very competitive ought to prepare a compelling list of target schools. And such a list should be composed of safety schools for financial and academic purposes as well as various reaches.

59

Now that I have read the subsequent posts, allow me to address the immigrant part:

I am not an immigrant, but the son of immigrants. My parents valued education but were not obsessed with HYPS.

To be clear, my point is that you and your son should extend the size of your net, and not let broad assumptions lead you (and your son) astray. I really think that you have come to the right place and that you should immerse yourself in various debated right here on CC. After a while, you might be able to separate the “Ivy of bust” from the “Let’s glorify the State universities” and realize how WRONG both messages are as they miss the individual component of each applicant.

Simply stated for some students the HYPSM of this world are perfectly suited for the talent and dedication of the student, and his or her parents desire to invest or receive financial aid. For others, the route of schools such as Berkeley, Wisconsin, Michigan, or Texas is the most appropriate. For others, that route might take a student from Rhodes to Wellesley or Reed! That is why you should NOT (or let you son) place restrictions on the choices this early in the “game.”

There are no right or wrong answers. This said, starting with the wrong set of assumptions, is bound to lead to poor choices. Over the years, I have dealt with people who started thinking they were not competitive for our top schools and would never be able to afford them. They also believed in the value of being that “big fish” in the pond and thought that the path for them might be easier at the “easiest schools.” The reality did not necessarily support such choices!

60

I applaud your S. My D. stood up for herself, refused to listen to her advisor and DID NOT apply to any of the Ivy /Elite. We supported her decision. Instead, she said that she would do absolutely fine at EVERY place and she did. Looking back, she attended the place that fits her perfectly, her experiences there went well beyond our expectaions. As of her stand and where she attended: she graduated #1 in her class from the most rigorous private HS in our area, she went to in-state public college where she attended on full tuition Merit award. She graduated #1 pre-med in her college class (Summa Cum Laude, Phi Betta Kappa, several other awards) and was accepted to 4 Med. Schools (again, against the wishes of her pre-med advisor, did not apply to any very top, but was accepted to 2 top 20 while applying only to 8 schools). She is graduating from Med. School this May and was absolutely EQUAL to others in her medical school class that was filled with students primarily from Ivy’s /Elites. She had NO disadvantages in comparison to them. However, she has a huge advantage. As a psrt of small group of Medical Students, she will graduate without debt, NO DEBT, zero. We did not pay for her UG, so we paid for Med. School instead. She earned it not only by her hard work but also by her very wise decision choosing free UG. By all advisors, she shuld have gone to Harvard as all other #1’s from her HS. She was much smarter, more mature and self-sufficient and it paid off for her in a very big way, about $300K worth way.