Peaceful religious fanatics strike again in France

Ah, come on Xiggi, these are just a couple of nutcases. They don’t represent Islam.

It’s not like there are violent terrorist murders all over the globe, in the name of Islam. And it’s not like there are many, many thousands of people who are part of ISIS, claiming to be practicing a pure form of Islam. It’s not as if they have thousands of supporters, who send them money, help them when they come through, and flock from all over the world to practice this pure form of Islam. It’s not like they have enough support that they can take over entire villages and sections of a country.

It’s also not like they have an example from majority Muslim governments that cut off their citizen’s heads and other body parts, stone adulterers, imprison or execute people who have been accused of saying things against Islam or the government, or proselytize other religions. It’s not like they execute or jail homosexuals. Shoot, Iran doesn’t even have any homosexuals. It’s not like any of the majority Muslim governments massively subjugate their female population, giving them little, if any rights, in the name of Islam.

It’s just a couple of crazies. I mean really, think of all the people that die in car accidents, this doesn’t even compare.

I wonder if I have to explain to anyone that this is sarcasm? :wink:

There’s a foreign(to most) culture that many Middle Eastern people are raised in: aggressiveness, cockiness, dishonesty, and more. I believe that these terrorists do what they do not because of the religion they claim to support and kill over, but because of the said culture. Then again, I know nothing about Islam and could be wrong entirely.

I happen to know the culture because I’m Middle Eastern.

That is interesting, @stugace. That is a perspective that most of us do not have. Do you mind telling us where you are from? Even if you aren’t part of the religion, if you are part of the culture, you have a completely different take than those of us who aren’t.

@busdriver11, I was born in Lebanon but came over to the US when I was 4-5. I’m a Christian, but I do not consider myself to be apart of that culture, I simply observe it from the people around me.

I’m not saying all Middle Easterns are barbaric, but it’s very hard to say that when - time after time - we see stories like these and say it’s only a few trouble-makers.

Of course, people in Afghanistan and Pakistan and Indonesia don’t come from a Middle Eastern culture at all, but there’s been plenty of terrorism there as well. So I kind of doubt your theory.

Call it what you will, but it’s a widespread culture nevertheless. I know Pakistan and Afghanistan are guilty of having that way of life, but I’m unsure about Indonesia.

If they did it for media attention, they picked the wrong day…

I have Malaysian friends from college who are Muslim. One is transgender. I can’t imagine more happy, peaceful, productive people. In short, they are normal! Let’s hope their philosophy of life spreads and overtakes that of the violent killers.

It’s a problem though, isn’t it? When a religion becomes dominated, at least in world events, by the insane, barbarous violence of some of it’s adherents.

I do not find it very hard to say not all Middle Easterns are barbaric because I understand that like many other regional areas consisting of a mix of cultures, identities, and religions, there are varying ideologies. I, too, have a couple Lebanese friends and colleagues whose view point would vary from stugace’s perception due to their understanding of life living in the Middle East and its history.

These past few posts are every telling and I find it a bit hard to digest. Just…very interesting.

In the incident in France, the guy who was beheaded was killed elsewhere, and he was the boss of the guy accused of the attack and neither worked for the gas plant (the accused’s company delivered to the plant, the accused had done many deliveries there according to what I read). We don’t know why the guy did this, apparently he was 30 years old and had 3 kids, why he turned radical, why he self described himself as a disciple of ISIS, that will probably come out.

As far as blaming Islam, it is complicated. Islam like all religions has a backstory so to speak, and the Q’ran and the teachings of the religion reflect its origins. Islam was born out of Bedouin culture initially, and that influenced a lot of the ideas there, the tribalism, the us versus them mentality, the social justice aspects of Islam (which in some ways far outpace concepts in Christianity and Judaism IMO), are all parts of the past. Some of it reflects the absorption of other cultures, that wiped out pre-existing Islamic culture, such as when the Mongols sacked what is now Iraq and adopted Islam. The culture in that area at that time was pretty advanced (11th century or so), Baghdad was a seat of learning, was part of the culture of discovery in astronomy and chemistry we still use today in language, an 11th century Baghdad intellectual basically created the scientific method; the mongols were obviously war like, and it was they that put in a lot of the aggressiveness and such and it changed over time. Sadly, some of this became standard faith to some people, turning Jihad from being a war of self protection to being one of aggression for example. The Q’Ran itself has intemperate language, that like the Old and New Testaments has been used to justify all kinds of horrible actions.

The other thing to keep about is that these same crazies is that they pose a threat to Muslims. A mosque was just bombed in Kuwait, that killed people praying, and while most of those killed in Tunisia were foreign, muslims are dying in these attacks, too (not to mention that with this happening, Tunisia as a whole will suffer, tourists will stay away).

It is frustrating, because it is hard speaking for myself not to get angry, not to see the hate, the horrible acts, and I have said things in retrospect I shouldn’t have. It is especially hard because this radicalization is not a government, it isn’t a country, it is hitting all over, and often seems to get people involved you wonder why. There is no doubt that it is based around Islam, around radial Imans and such preaching the hate and whatnot, but you also have to keep in mind Islam is not the Catholic Church or any other church, in the tradition anyone can proclaim themselves an Iman (I guess it is kind of like televangelists in the US), and fire people up.

I think there is criticism that is warranted, I think that for example the Saudi role in all of this has been deliberately kept quiet, a lot of this radicalization happened because the Saudi’s sponsored islamic Madras schools all over the world, teaching their uber fundamentalist form of Islam (W’Habi’ism), a lot of Saudi oil revenue went into this, and that helped create a good part of the radicalization we have seen. There also has been a hesitancy on the part of Muslims to criticize fellow Muslims or stand up to them, when you have Muslim religious leaders who will put a death price on the head of a writer (Salmon Rushdie) because they felt his book was blasphemous, yet have remained amazingly silent for example on the heads of ISIS or Al Qaeda, who if you think about it, by their actions are doing a lot more harm to the faith then Rushdie did, yet no Fatwahs, no death prices. Heck, the Saudi’s could afford to put prices on the heads of those groups and get action, but they don’t.

The reality is that most muslims are peaceful, what is disconcerting is that kids from families who are not radical, who aren’t hateful or anti anything, turn out to be radicalized. Some parents are going to have to make some tough decisions, if their kid suddenly starts talking all this radical nonsense, wants to go to Yemen or some such place, they may be faced with turning in their own kid. The real answer is figuring out why groups like ISIS are even attractive, how could young women want to go and join them, when they will be treated basically like a piece of property of a motorcycle gang (the description, by the way, came from a Muslim cleric, I thought it a good one). I do think that at some point the Muslim world , as disparate and different as it is, is going to need to wake up and realize that groups like ISIS and Al Qaeda are not Muslim and that they pose a major threat to everyone else, and need to be dealt with. How that will happen is anyone’s guess, when you are dealing with a group of people numbering over a billion people, where there are so many different cultures and beliefs and sects, that isn’t easy, I think a large part is waking up to the fact that these groups pose a major threat to them and their lives. I guess the rough equivalent is the attitude of people in the US to terrorism before 1993 and especially September 11th, where before that for most of us it was something that happened “over there”, in the 14 years since terrorism is now a major part of our lives and perceptions of things.

My boss is a Pakistani Muslim and he says it isn’t Islam, per se, but the culture in which Islam was born and raised, which are shame-based, male-dominance cultures. Unfortunately, whether Arab or otherwise, much of Islam is comprised of those cultures and the tribal culture, all of which are incompatible with western values and lifestyles and really are at war with us. If those people were adherents of a different religion or none at all, they would still be at war with us because their cultures don’t lead to progress, prosperity, equality and fulfillment, therefore envy is pervasive, which is a huge problem in a shame culture. The question is whether we will acknowledge the existence of this war and fight it to win before it’s too late.

I dunno, I’d like to see how the Bible Belt Christians of the American South would have reacted to Saudi drones flying over Alabama to root out and kill leaders of the KKK. during the 1960s. Especially if there were Saudi and Kuwaiti airbases either in, let say Florida, or even Mexico and Canada. And girls started wearing fashionable hijabs to school.

I know it’s 100 years ago, but let’s look at the lynching of Jesse Washington in Texas. He was convicted, dragged out of court, and in front of thousands, including children, castrated, had his fingers cut off and he was raised over a bonfire, and for two hours was raised and lowered over the bonfire.

After his death, his charred body was dragged through town and cut up for souvenirs.

And this in a country in which the perpetrators of the act were the ones who held the power.

I’m not saying that what these extremists are currently doing is acceptable. What I’m trying to say is that atrocity is not unique to a particular culture, religion or time.

There are historical, economic as well as cultural reasons why violent extremism develops.

Who is it exactly who is not acknowledging the existence of this war? And perhaps more importantly, how do we “fight it to win”? I’m sure the governments of the western world (and the rest of the world for that matter) would be very happy for an effective answer to the latter question.

Aha, I knew someone would start blaming it on the US, and talk about the evils we did in the past. Next, we’ll start hearing about the Crusades.

Not thinking that the brutality against other Muslims and Christians, including selling and executing women and children into dlavery, has anything to do with drones.

Cosar, everyone who says we are not at war with the Muslim world is in dangerous denial.

Speaking of the Crusades… wasn’t that about the time that the Arab world was making great advances in the sciences including astronomy, mathematics, navigation, etc. Europe was medieval and they were the enlightened ones. What happened? They would have still been tribal back then, right? I’m not a historian so I’m asking because I don’t know - not to be snarky.

Well the Muslim world was trying to make great advances into Europe, but good old vlad was Europe’s last line of defense.

Sulieman was stopped in his advance towards Vienna by a very rainy spring. You can’t drag heavy artillery through the mud. I didn’t know about Vlad.

Skrlvr - thanks for your post.
And what about the extremist Christians who bomb abortion clinics and kill doctors? or kill people like Matthew Shepard?

The idea of a war against the muslim world is a bit ridiculous, it is hyperbole. There are Moslem countries like Indonesia that we are not at war with, Turkey despite the idiot who has been running it recently is a member of NATO, there are a lot of Muslims in India or of Indian descent, and we don’t have problems with them. There are a lot of educated, urbane Muslims in Pakistan, who the last thing they want is a war with the west (In Pakistan, the problem they have is typical, it is with the borderlands near Afghanistan, full of Peshtun tribespeople who are uneducated, and culturally aligned with people in Afghanistan more than the rest of the country.)

There are a lot of factors in what we are seeing, and a lot of blame to go around. Colonialism didn’t exactly help, where the British and others mixed people regardless of tribal areas and left borders that made no sense, which left a lot of resentments. Then, too, our old friend oil did a number, it brought wealth to the region, that was not exactly evenly distributed, and then policy towards the region was slanted towards keeping the oil flowing, leaving a lot of people poor and angry. The middle east has always been a hotspot, clashes there have been going on for thousands of years and the resentments run deep. A lot of it had to do with money and wealth, whether it was a crossroads on the spice trade or the merchant paths to China and the east, or in modern times with oil.

Many there remember the crusades and more importantly, how vicious the crusaders were, people in Europe remember the Turkish attempts to take large parts of Europe. There are some ironies when I hear Christians in particulars talk about the 'savage" muslims of the period, but during the middle ages while Europe to a large extent was buried alive intellectually and otherwise, it was the Muslim world from about the 8th century to roughly 1500, that helped in many ways save the civilization that the Greeks and Romans left, and also helped the path to the modern world. The reason for the change , why in a sense the Muslim world went backwards, is a combination of things, the cultures that had been the educated ones, the ones driving forth knowledge, were overrun by quite frankly bedouin and other tribes and outsiders (the Mongols for one), who often adopted Islam, but then changed it. The Ottoman empire itself went into decline, and that changed things as well, and a rougher, less educated, more warlike and tribal culture took over, ironically as the west went through the reformation and the renaissance that is credited with starting modern civilization (and before someone harp on the details, this is a very broad summary, things don’t happen that neatly in history).

What we are at war with to me isn’t the religion, it is a war against religious fundamentalism and intolerance, and that transcends the particular faith, fundamentalism and also the associated cult of ignorance is the big enemy. The only reason Christian fundamentalism hasn’t degenerated into violence in the US on a widespread level is primary because there isn’t the power vacuum that exists other places (that doesn’t mean there aren’t Christian extremists, there are, and they do act, but they are kept in check by knowing there is a strong government there that will strongly go after them), but it potentially can and certainly we have some fundamentalists who are armed to the teeth and are just waiting for an excuse to use it, Itzak Rabin was killed by the Jewish equivalent of ISIS. The other thing we should be at war with is the root causes of a lot of this, isolation, feeling helpless, like there is no hope. One of the things that Islam offers up, especially the radicalized version of it, is that in Islam the political and religious are combined together, and Islam if it stands for everything is big on social justice. It is ironic that the Saudi Royal family and the well off families there can consider themselves muslim, one of the biggest tenets of the faith is that great wealth like that, not used to help those less fortunate, is an insult to Allah and that if one man is tremendously wealthy while others are hungry it is an insult to the creator and so forth. Economic justice is not exactly a reality in the middle east, it usually is a place where if they have wealth in the form of oil revenue, it is concentrated in the hands of an elite class, in other countries, it is political domination by the military and/or their elites.