<p>You couldn’t have the decency to let this go? You had to dredge the thread up for some pathetic attempt to convince yourself you are right. Blech.</p>
<p>Another Penn student has died and the cause is unknown. He (a senior) was found dead outside a Philadelphia nightclub- Jan 2. No foul play suspected. [The</a> Daily Pennsylvanian](<a href=“http://www.dailypennsylvanian.com/]The”>http://www.dailypennsylvanian.com/)</p>
<p>This student was in classes with my son, who is quite upset since it is about the 5th peer he has lost in the last few years, so please be civil in your comments.</p>
<p>That’s too bad, MOWC – my condolences to your son (and the Penn community) on the loss of a classmate.</p>
<p>Oh my, MOWC-- how awful. Losing two students in such a short peroid of time must be really tough on the Penn commununity. Are the students back from break or will they be having to deal with this upon their return?? Again, my condolences to you, WC and the Penn family.</p>
<p>What’s tragic is the human condition–we often do know what are the safer, healthier, more moral or generally more advisable choices for us to make and yet we sometimes still fail to choose those better options. We are vulnerable creatures whose lives are just a breath–here one day and gone the next. Sure, some of us are more skilled at comprehending the potential or definite consequences of our actions than others, some of us possess more self-control and self-discipline than others, but we are all weak and flawed.</p>
<p>I have one child whose strength is rational thought and self-discipline. He is a delightful young man, a parents’ dream. I probably don’t ever need to worry about getting a phone call from college informing me he’s fallen off a roof while high or fooling around, or from a window while drunk. Last week he was invited to a New Year’s party near the local flagship univ. and decided the risks of going anywhere near there in a car on New Year’s outweighed the benefits–which, since he doesn’t drink, were minimal. He’s someone who would also think this accident was the result of stupidity. Why? Because people with his personality type do not suffer fools gladly. Believe me, he is still a kind and loving person to those around him, but his forte is not compassion or handholding. It takes all kinds to make the world go round, though, and we don’t just need soft-heartedness and sympathy in this world, we also need the practical and rational perspective of barrons and tourguide too.</p>
<p>So when this type of unfortunate occurrences get discussed in our family, my kids hear both sides: the how sad and tragic, and how stupid. D, who might climb a roof and I love just as much, needs to hear the latter.</p>
<p>[American</a> Debate](<a href=“http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/americandebate/]American”>american-debate) Polman’s Jan 3 blog entry (Phila Inquirer) is about this student. </p>
<p>The students are not back from break. I told my son about it, not realizing he knew the young man. I really have grave concerns about this generation.</p>
<p>My condolences to your son, MoWC. This is terrible.</p>
<p>How terribly sad! The loss of life of a promising young person is always very difficult to fathom. My thoughts are with his family and friends and the rest of the Penn community.</p>
<p>So very sorry to hear about your son MofWC. What a tough go of it he’s had.</p>
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<p>Agreed there are important sides to such an issue to discuss. But there is a world of difference between an informed rational debate and simply using the victim to make a joke, or unnecessarily flinging derogatory labels unto a victim. </p>
<p>Moreover, there is a time and place for everything. Great topic over dinner, insensitive topic at a post-reception funeral or a message board where readers include those close to the victims.</p>
<p>Rationality doesn’t excuse a lack of social judgment or emotional intelligence.</p>
<p>I don’t think a general college discussion board such as this should be off limits for a rational discussion of student deaths. This is not the Penn board. If a few who happen to have some connection to the subject are too upset to read any posts questioning the actions of the students leading to their deaths they can just skip the discussion.</p>
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<p>Re-read your earlier posts: how were you “contributing to a rational discussion”? </p>
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<p>Or, a few… can stop posting spite filled comments on various threads that add nothing intellectual whatsoever.</p>
<p>^^^ Ditto. We shouldn’t have to go to the Penn board to get away from your hateful remarks. I chose the parents’ forum for my post, and while I can’t prevent you from posting in the thread I started, I am asking you to please get lost.</p>
<p>MOWC, I’m sorry to hear about your son’s friend. It saddens me to hear peoples’ comments about the behavior of young people who have died. At a time when family and friends are grieving, it adds nothing valuable or helpful to be insinuating that these young people somehow deserved what happened to them. Many, if not most, young people will, at some point in their young lives, do something stupid, or put themselves in a position of risk, intentionally or not. Stupid behavior, in my opinion, is not worthy of the death penalty. Certainly there are kids who live life on the edge, there are also adults who do so. It may be that their behavior isn’t something that you or I would consider, but, as I said, there are very few of us who haven’t done something stupid and who are thankful that there were not serious consequences. Now that my kids are older, they often will tell me the stupid things they did while in high school. Even my Ivy-educated, mature, responsible, wonderful, risk-averse, married daughter who is a wonderful elementary school teacher has told me stories that just make me shake my head in wonder at the things she did in her teen years. She almost can’t believe that she did those things either! Thank heaven that she’s still here to have the regrets.</p>
<p>There have been a couple of recent incidents here in Canada that have reminded me of this discussion here on CC. Eight snowmobilers were killed in British Columbia in an avalanche last week, after knowingly going into an area where there were posted high risks of avalanche. A 21 year old hockey player died after hitting his head on the ice during a fight in the course of a game. His helmet had fallen off. All of these young men could be said to have been involved in stupid behavior. That doesn’t mean that they all deserved to die. It also doesn’t change the enormous burden of grief that is surrounding their parents, siblings, grandparents, and friends. </p>
<p>I had an uncle who was an ER physician. I remember him saying, on more than one occasion, that it’s amazing that as many kids make it through their teens and early 20’s alive, as do. Those of us who have been fortunate enough to never experience this type of grief, that of having to bury one of our children, should be grateful every day of our lives, and try to have the utmost compassion for those who are not so fortunate.</p>
<p>You talked rationally about student deaths, barrons? I musta missed that :rolleyes:</p>
<p>Yes, if you jump around rooftops you just might fall and DIE. So don’t do it. That is the height of being rational. And don’t drink 20 hard drinks in a few hours, idiot–you will probably DIE. The list goes on. It is not hateful to state obvious facts.</p>
<p>Today I wrote a sympathy card to a former co-worker whose husband died suddenly at age 49 from either a burst artery or a heart attack with no prior indications. Now that’s a tragedy leaving a wife and three young kids.</p>
<p>And don’t drive fast race cars. You might DIE.</p>
<p>Yes, but the odds are pretty good if you take the proper steps. Far fewer people die in racing accidents than from drinking and mountain climbing. Deaths are actually very rare in amateur road racing. Much safer than speeding on the highway.</p>
<p>You engage in a high risk behavior, you are taking risks, no matter how many precautions you take. Dale Earnhardt may have had a faulty seatbelt or helmet with inadequate neck support, but he thought he took pretty decent precautions in his car and he DIED.
I am sure there are plenty, PLENTY of young adults who drink too much and don’t die of ETOH poisoning, or who climb on something and don’t die. The argument is baseless because you have no data for the <em>absence</em> of a negative outcome in these cases.</p>
<p>Whatever. Jumping around on roofs is just stupid. Auto racing is a sport with significant safety precautions as a base requirement and all drivers are tested for skills before they ever race. There is no comparison. You are now being ridiculous. Mehalo</p>
<p>Beg to differ. Most posters on this thread are being reasonable. Two are being cruel and offensive. I am not one of them. And the one who is being “ridiculous” is not me.</p>
<p>There are high risk and ultimate sports and they all, ALL come with risk, no matter how skilled you <em>think</em> you are or how many precautions you <em>think</em> you take. Produce data that shows how many young adults drink too much and dont die, or how many jump out of perfectly good airplanes and dont die, or climb walls or mountains or glaciers and do or dont die. Provide some numbers to back up your reasonong, or respect MOWC’s wishes and go away. Auto racing is a risky sport, and no reasonable person here is going to think otherwise.</p>