The CDS (Common Data Set) tells the tale. Penn State is pretty original in what they value vs many other schools. GPA and Course Rigor are in the Very Important column. Rigor is, of course, AP classes. Then in the considered column you have Test Scores, Talent, and Location (both state and region of PA). There is nothing in the important column which is fascinating to me.
So based on this it is really GPA and Rigor. With 100,000 applicants you have to wonder if an algorithm sorts based on GPA and Rigor in to piles then the humans sort through to determine in state vs out. Region of PA they draw from and Test Scores if submitted. I have no idea what Talent is because in the CDS ECs are not considered nor is the essay. Legacy is also not considered. Many states schools do not count legacy and some states governments will not allow state schools to use legacy as a qualifier. I donāt know about PA but PSU does not consider it.
Based on what you have listed 3.3 with no rigor is difficult to be competitive. If their SAT is high (middle 50%) I would submit it. The CDS for 2024 states about 50% (correction it is 36.54%) admitted were test optional so it isnāt as big of a deal as people are making it out to be for Penn State. Standardized tests are not a deciding factor for Penn State. At least, not in 2024.
He got 2+2 which is great. I know a few people at our HS who were rejected and wish they had a 2+2. They were 3.5 GPAs and above with lots of AP classes but out of state and the competition in our area is fierce. Additionally, I have to wonder how many out of state students they want. PSU does not give much merit money to freshman so the price out of state is pretty high. I wonder if they want that income so they want a certain number of out of state students.
Itās all a puzzle. I try to think like an admissions director. #1 how much revenue we need for the coming year. This determines the number of students out of state and in state for the given amount of capacity they have. Then determine the number of in state students they must accommodate from around the state in addition to ones who are in need. I would hate that job but Iām guessing in the next few years AI will shorten the process to minutes where the kids will know immediately after submitting their application.
There is not a strong differentiation from in state vs OOS other than they know the competitiveness of the high schools for IS.
Talent is the catch all for recruited student - athlete, touch of blue baton twirler, published author, etc.
in the past few years, they have separated the pools by test submitted as one pool and TO as a separate pool. They have done studies to see the success of students who were TO. Anecdotally, I have seen applicants with similar grades and stats with better outcomes for those that submitted test scores vs those that did not. For example, similar grades and rigor - TO student was given summer start, test submitted student was given fall start.
Do you have a link to where it states they have separated out by pools of TO and test submitted? Where the study is?
Iād be interested in reading it because what you are saying and what the CDS is saying are in conflict.
In fact, I was wrong in my post above. Only 36.54% of the lastest data set of admitted students to UP submitted an SAT or ACT. The majority admitted are test optional. That tells me Penn State does not give much consideration to standardized tests and is in concert with the CDS.
Interesting. If TO is truly TO, they are supposed to make decision as if that data point doesnāt exist. So, same grades and same rigor TO would end up the same as someone with scores. Mine went TO in a previous admission cycle - got into UP and fall as well as other highly ranked engineering schools. Attends a top 10 engineering school and doing well. I personally donāt think deciding to go TO or not is a measure of how successful they will be in college.
Looks like they do if 63% of kids admitted are TO. I think it varies school to school and they say on their sites what their expectations are with TO. All the Ivys are test required now and usually the rest of the schools follow whatever they do. The problem is PSU and some schools want to advertise their middle 50% is XXX number when in fact itās much lower. If you look at the CDS of schools in 2019 that is really what the middle score is.
No one is going to submit a score below the middle 50% so all the test data is skewed and very off. Itāll take some time and every school to return to requiring it. Despite what Lucy states above I donāt believe the current SAT is an accurate depiction if a student will succeed or not in university. I studied it with my daughter for several months and you can rig it in your favor by just knowing how to eliminate answers and see patterns. Itās a game of sorts. A true test of oneās education would not have multiple choice answers. If you were to take the Korean secondary school test you will see how woefully behind our country is in education.
This summer one of the head admission officers from Penn State said their internal studies show that performance on one test does not indicate success at college rather they found that gpa and rigor is a better indicator of a students ability to succeed in college. This was a video uploaded I found either on instagram or Facebook, but was fairly long. Iām sure itās still out there as it was early August and it was advice for students applying to PSU. He also said not to fret about the essay as that isnāt as important either. It was a very interesting listen. He also said to apply early for EA (think he said he recommended before end of August). Now looking at admission decisions, I do feel those with strong gpas, high rigor and test scores get admitted very quickly. But also see those that are test optional that get admitted early as well.
Yep, would that be Matt Melvin? What he said kind of follows the CDS exactly. In fact, kids donāt even need to submit an essay as itās not considered at all.
Was that video August of this year for students applying now?
Not all, but where it is useful: Business, Liberal Arts, Communication. Iād need to check but perhaps Arts?
For some majors, the choice is Math (Stats 200 or Calculus) OR Foreign Language proficiency - the idea being that both require intellectual dexterity and are evidence of harder-than-basic-HS ability.
Elsewhere it is recommended (anyone aiming for grad school; employment with a company that does business abroad or employs non English speaking workers. Engineering has no foreign language requirement but things related to energy will involve Canada and the College of Engineering has some initiatives for French speaking students; College of ag has Spanish for Agriculture and agricultural workers, thereās Spanish for Health professions, Business French, Business German, etc..) but not mandatory.
Finally, the upper classes (201, 202, 300+..) are always available for the gen ed requirements in the Humanities (6 or 9 credits) for students who want to have a certified level of proficiency rather than seminars in history or classical literature or whatever mind-broadening, curiosity-sharpening courses they might choose from hundreds available.
Wrt Smeal it makes a lot of sense: Penn State has been following a ācultureā (rather than ātoward literatureā) curriculum for over 30, years, where students not only learn how to read/write/under/speak but also how language and culture mesh, and especially how to check and analyze their cultural assumptions: from basics like why you wonāt find anywhere for lunch at certain hours to where/when smiling might be offensive to hard issues like implied meaning in some titles or places or references. All of this is essential in a business environment, whether working in the US or with international clients. Itās also more mature than what you can do in HS where often student study concrete objects like food, festivals, folklore, etc. (that are also covered in college but as part of a larger cultural fabric.)
The TO topic has been discussed here a few times. I only have one anecdotal data point to share and thatās my kid, a summer start the 2025 school year.
Last year there was another parent that posted their kidās stats and they were identical to my kids stats. And I mean truly identical in every way possibleā¦weighted and unweighted GPA, number and type of AP and honors classes, intended major, in state, extracurriculars, campus and summer selectionā¦all of it.
My kid submitted SAT scores and the other did not. Mine got summer start and the other Altoona. Draw any conclusions you want.
Also, my kid loved summer session and would do it again over fall start. Grades through first semester have been exceptional.
They absolutely weight gpa and rigor as a higher predictor than test scores. No doubt. Penn state has ALWAYS felt that previous (HS) grades is a better predictor of success than a test. But they also look at test scores and they are not test-blind even if test optional.
I have data from admissions (a few years old) where they took admitted students and sliced the data by TO vs test submitted. They found that the TO kidsā first year grades were lower than test submitted (having said that, the mean HS gpa was lower for TO kids also).
Anecdotally, I have seen different outcomes form kids who went TO from similar stats of a kid who submitted a test.
You are assuming they are test blind if they have gone TO. I donāt believe that is the case both by results (admittedly anecdotal) Iāve seen as well as studies that admissions has done. Their studies show that TO kids had a lower first year gpa than test submitted. (TO kids also had a lower HS gpa coming in). Admissions also differentiated between science and non-science fields with more science applicants submitting tests than went TO. (In 2022, science applicants were 49% TO while non-science were 68% TO).
Iām not saying a kid wonāt be admitted if TO. Iām saying that TO is not test blind. The more positive data you can submit with an application to strengthen your case, the better outcomes are more likely.
Thank you. Itāll be an interesting read. I know the trend for schools is going back to tests and I wonder why PSU isnāt. At least, not in the last published CDS.
The information I have seen and heard from Psu is not that many accepted for the needed yield. Their yield is higher at UP. Think around 30% and they have spots for 9500 with desire to increase that to 10k freshman over the next several years as they build additional housing. Their application numbers last year was about 150k received with over 120k asking for UP. This was about the same numbers for last two years. Not sure about this year yet.
