She could take a Math 110 equivalent the summer before freshman year but she may need it as a pre-req for several classes freshman year so I don’t think she could take it after freshman year. In addition, the summer format will be more concentrated/faster - a year’s worth of Calc over 6 weeks. So you’d need to weigh pros and cons.
If she takes a calc class the summer before freshman year she could try and take math 111 at PSU (a 2-credit applied calc class you can take after Math 110).
My daughter has also only taken precalculus in high school and I was worried about this same thing. They have to take the math placement test so I’m assuming if they are ready, they will test into the course. My daughter is taking the test early with the local community college to see how she scores bc if she tests into needing a precalc foundation course as a prereq to 140, she’s going to take it this summer instead of at Penn state in the fall.
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This “weed out” classes seem to be an issue in many institutions due to lack of good calculus preparation in high school and a deliberate attempt by colleges to overadmit and weed out a significant portion of students to either transfer out or fall back to less in-demand majors. My son was admitted to PSU - DUS to Smeal plan, Rutgers Business School- direct into business school, VT- direct into Business school and others. When we visited Rutgers Business school events- the Business AO specifically told incoming B school students to either use AP credits or take calculus in community college after enrollment as per their approved recommendation. They bluntly told calculus courses are harsh weed outs with many failing it and not take Rutgers Calculus courses at if possible- great advertisement to put off students!. My kid has done Precalculus, Calculus - both As and SAT Math score of 740. He was put off by it and following the visit to Rutgers, starting thinking seriously about PSU DUS path and the risk it entails .. then made the decision to commit to VT Pamplin school.. The calculus course there too are not easy but not brutal. Maybe colleges should put more effort in better teachers for better student outcomes instead.
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The way PSU handles it is that they have a placement test so, if the student doesn’t try to game it, they’re placed at the right level for their math background.
Students who were just in regular precalc (or whose sat math score indicates potential within the context of their school but likely difficulty in the PSU calc class) and were admitted to STEM majors may also be offered a “Bridge to calculus” summer class in groups of about 24.
Math 140 is taken by premeds (especially 140B) and engineers (especially 140E). It’s like in-depth Calc AB over 4 months, with probably 10 hours of psets/homework every week. The class material is difficult, fast paced, requires a lot of prep, and the exams are hard - the weedout is achieved through all this. 141 is supposed to be more intentionally weed out than 140, in that the curve is harsh and all want to be STEM majors.
Math 110 is just for Business&social science students (Smeal, CLA, HHD). It’s a threshold for would-be business majors, and while I don’t think it’s the best or most relevant signifier, most business schools use it as such.
If not HS calculus, sound precalculus should help - perhaps checking old retired exams from the universities you consider and see how your do at the end of the equivalent to the HS math class completed end of Senior year?
I agree with the assessment of math 140 and 141. I found math 141 to be more difficult and the drop rate was higher. As noted, everyone in math 141 was a STEM major when I took it back in the 90s.
I disagree with the comment to hire better teachers. These are not teachers. They are PhD professors who are presenting high level material and concepts to adults. The job of the students is to put in the work to learn the material without having their hand held.
If they are unable to learn the material in 140 or 141 at Penn State they don’t belong in the program because they won’t do well in the higher courses.
Sorry…these are future engineers and scientists and those jobs require the best people we can find. I don’t want bridges collapsing or planes with doors blowing out mid flight.
Do the work and pass the course. Thousands do it every semester. If you can’t, find another field of study.
I have no issue with weed out courses, they serve a purpose.
There are two sides to this aspect of weed out classes. Colleges are meant to educate and train and they are not doing it for free. Yes… quality of engineers and scientists is important and it comes only by strongly motivated and academically sound students who are enriched by great learning atmosphere that starts with the teaching staff. Having done doctoral degree in US myself, published heavily and worked at top 10 institute and collaborated with top scientists of the world myself for more than a decade, I am well aware of the role played by PhD level professors.. Their role in class is to be good teachers of concepts in a well designed curriculum for student success.. they can do their own interests in their research labs but UG teaching is a different ball game… too many Phd research professors are not good at UG level teaching and the TA do most of the lifting…
Yes, not all students know what they want and are meant to be successful in their original pursuits but it also doesn’t absolve college administrations of failure to improve student outcomes at all levels of background knowledge when charging this high level of tuition. Each institution admit students on the belief that they can be successful in their institution .. Maybe they should make their admission standards more rigorous and focussed depending upon majors than they are already.. Or add more focussed step up curriculum based on strengths for each individual major and less needless electives for committed majors. Many colleges, it takes nearly 1.5- 2 years to get to do core major specific courses.. Other countries which are ahead of US and strong in STEM, have curriculum designed to a particular major in a more in depth and phased up manner-- There is a reason graduate level courses/research is lifted heavily in US by internationals.. they come better trained in the STEM fields at UG level itself.
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…admission standards more rigorous…
Yes, 100% agree with you here. Much of the weed out phenomenon could be eliminated with higher bars of admission up front.
We’re getting off topic and this is a hot button discussion so I’ll drop it now. You make some valid counters to my view on this.
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Came here looking for info on PSU and I see the calc discussion. My son plans to be a stat major - he may place out of Math 140 and Math 141 with AP Calc B/C (I would be lucky to survive Math 110!) - it was recommended that he start with Math 141 (Calc 2) - rather than use his AP Credits to go straight to Calc 3. Would that be the recommendation of those with experience?
Also - thoughts on Schreyer dorms (Atherton / Simmons) versus Non-Schreyer for incoming freshman?
Schreyer dorms are well-located and quite comfortable, with a topnotch associated dining hall. Compared to typical freshman halls it’ll be quieter, fewer problems with raucous parties and vomit in the trashcan. There’s an actual quiet room for those who want to work without distractions.
One of them has The Globe, which is international news focused - discussions every week. Nicer space but selective.
One of them has pianos.
Depending on how dedicated he is, he could take 140-141H, which will be proof based calculus. Everyone in that sequence has already a calculus background and plans to major in math, stats, or something very quant. A smaller class but not for the faint hearted. It sets students up well for high level math.
More reasonable would be “regular” 141 but it’s a weedout course so he should make it a point to attend office hours right from the start, to book a tutor even if he thinks he doesn’t need one, etc. That’ll be the difference between a B and an A for someone doing well in AP Calc BC.
Alternatively, he can ask the Math dept whether they have an old, retired final for 141 to see if he’s covered it already (possible if he attends a top HS that teaches more in-depth than what BC requires.)
Thanks for the info! He had an informational call with an advisor who recommended he start with 141 rather than using AP for 140 and 141. Sounds like 140-141H is something to explore too - if the rest of his classes are more balanced - or plan for 141 with the extra effort you mentioned.
Thanks!
Yes, BC typically is no substitute for 141, but taking the final would quickly determine whether he is an exception to the rule.
He could also talk to Schreyer wrt 140H - whether it’s appropriate for a future Statistics major and fits with his goals, whether Stats 200H may be a better choice or should be added; downside, it adds one semester of math, upside it’s a smaller class and very in-depth, for majors only (though open to any interested student, it’s hardcore nature limits it’s appeal to some math/stats/quant/Engineering majors, often with grad school ambitions).
His typical 1st semester schedule would be
Honors 137
Math 141
Stats 200H or 300 (if he got a 5 on AP stats and doesn’t want to take 200H) or 184
Econ 104H (if thinking of actuarial option)
Second semester would be
Honors 138
Stats 300 or 184
Math 230
1 more honors class, depending on AP credit
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@mom-of-2025-and-2028
I’m going to disagree here (one of the rare times I disagree with @MYOS1634 ).
If he has the opportunity to skip 141, take that opportunity. I base this opinion upon my son and his experience. He had Calc BC and was strong in it (got a 5 on the AP exam). We talked to a number of older students (Engineering and math) and they all recommended not taking 141 if that was an option. 141 is a known weed-out and they suggested he is better off to skip it and go straight to the next class. With the caveat that he needed to know that if he got behind in multi-variable, that he would need to get tutoring, or go to office hours, and be prepared to work for that class.
He has been successful with this strategy, from an academic perspective. The only thing that he is not a fan of is that he was so far ahead in some of his classes that he is with kids a year older and not necessarily his ‘cohort’ of friends. That is tempered by the fact that he will finish a semester early (actually just adding a masters into his 5 year program without adding a semester).
If your son is strong with Math (and it sounds like he is), then I would consider going to the next math class. Advisors will recommend 141 “because what if he missed something fundamental in 141” … however, in our discussions with older students, they all said “they just throw wacky hard problems at you to see what you can do. It wasn’t needed for the next level of math classes”.
Having said all that, he is Engineering, not Math or Stats. That may also make a difference. And I’m referring to regulard 141 not 141H.
good luck
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We’re not really disagreeing ,
I do think one has to be cautious about assuming “Calc BC = 141” because it’s not. It really depends on the HS class.
However, if the student does reasonably well on an old retired final from 141, then absolutely skip it. It’s pretty brutal indeed so no one who can skip should inflict this upon themselves. But if the background isn’t solid, it’d likely kneecap a student in 230.
That being said, I suppose an alternative is to register for 230, write down the drop/add deadline IN RED IN ALL CAPS!!! In the planner, and switch back to 141 if necessary - not sure if that’s possible if they took the credits though, something to ask an adviser.
These answers are super helpful - thank you!
He’s anticipating a 5 on the AP Exam (at least - that is his goal and where his practice tests seem to be trending) - and he did get a 5 on AP Stat (I don’t know where this kid comes from 
).
I think since he won’t have his AP score at the time of registration - he’ll have to sign up for 140 no matter what. But - sounds like if he can skip 140 and 141 - that wouldn’t be the worst thing
I’m sure he will figure this all out. He definitely won’t be listening to any of this from me for a while - but LVP - really appreciate your son’s perspective also having recently done this.
Thank you both!
I’m a current Penn State student in 141. My best advice is to take it again and don’t start with calc 3. I assume by calc 3 you mean Math 230. Math 230 is by far one of the most difficult classes you can take here. My friends who took it first semester do for the most part, regret it. They did pass, but its a shock to the system of most sophomores and I can’t imagine taking it first semester. I take a lot of the early math classes a stat major takes, if you have any questions ,please ask.
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@jbean45 Instead of taking Math 141 (since there can be an AP credit due to Calc BC), can a student audit the class (I mean just sit through the class) and perhaps take the class in Spring semister (2nd sem)?
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I think the advice from a current student living it is worth listening to given that they’re in the middle of it.
I do find it remarkable that the calculus experience at Penn State has not changed in 30 years as the feedback given above is just as valid today as it was in the 90s.
Unless the student coming out of high school is naturally gifted at higher mathematics (and there are certainly some out there that are) I’d think twice about trying to skip 141.
The comment about 141 simply throwing difficult problems at you for fun…amusing. But apparently still true decades later.
You mean take the AP credit, audit 141 in the Fall, and take 230 in the Spring?
Typically two caveats:
- the student must be really diligent and not skip, including office hours if necessary to strengthen areas of weakness if one is found-- the temptation to skip will be very high since there’d be no consequence grade-wise; it seems the transcript would only list satisfactory attendance (a good incentive)
- Auditing doesn’t carry credit and he would have to take 12-15 credits to remain in good standing
- Honors 137 = 3 credits
- Stats 200H (4credits) or 300 (3 credits)
- Stats 184 (3 credits)
- Econ 104H (3 credits)
Adding, Dropping, and Auditing Courses - registrar.psu.edu - Penn State
https://www.registrar.psu.edu/registration/adding-dropping-auditing-courses.cfm
While my kids did not attend Penn State, I see this sort of discussion at almost every college, in regard to the first semester student taking Calc 2 or 3.
And my observation - this is just my opinion - is that every year you see high school math “all-stars” who are gutted by these courses, but you see other HS math all-stars who breeze through these courses.
People told my middle kid that Calc 2 at her college was the toughest of the sequence. She had only taken Calc AB in HS, but she took Calc 2 first semester and it was no problem. Said the first month of the course was just review of the linear algebra course she took in HS. And every year there are kids like her and there are kids who struggle (and often end up changing majors).
This probably doesn’t help you much, though I’m trying to say that this comes down to the student. Consider how much a kid is a “natural” at math, as well as their math preparation. Calc AB at my kids’ HS went beyond just being able to pass the exam, and they really understood the “why” behind the way to solve a problem. They solved problems in class that were far more difficult than those on the exam. (Inside his classroom closet door, the teacher kept a list of students who got a 4 on the exam and you didn’t want to be on that list - not sure what happened to any kid who got a 3.)
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I don’t know how auditing a course works here. But 141 tends to be in a large but not huge lecture hall. You could find someone in it and join them in class if you wanted. But 141 is a pretty important class. I did Calc AB (got a 5) and found 140 extremely easy, like a repeat. But my friends who did calc bc found 141 to be littered with new material over the course of the class, and its an important class for math 230.
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