I can’t really recommend skipping 141. Later courses really do use stuff from that class more so than 140. Having a similar background will help you work with others later.
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Math 230 (calc 3) at penn state is different. People who do well in calc 2 struggle. Its a different course and probably the hardest people take because of the leap in reasoning, logic, and deep understanding of the rules needed for each problem.
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Remember that HS courses can be really different depending on the HS. AP courses&exams homogenize this to a certain extent but each teacher adapts to the class they have, their reference points, etc.
I agree in general that skipping 141 thinking it’s the same as BC would be a mistake but taking the final and seeing whether the student does well is a good test to see if the student is among the (?~) 10% where it may not apply, like @lucy_van_pelt’s child.
Some HS may teach AB then BC in sync with 140-141 (if a lot of students attend PSU, if they’re a high level HS) and some teach to the AP test only. And of course some students get a 4 on the test, some a 5, and amont those who scored 5 there’s a range of achievement.
@jbean’s idea of auditing 141 in the Fall (to plug any gap) and taking 230 in the Spring is a good one, too.
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Thanks for the insight. That was helpful. My son thinks 141 will be more than a repeat since he had to learn even multi variate Calc for his physics class in Sr high. I suggested to Audit since he’ll be taking honors version of 230 (some H or E or something), it will be tough. He wants it in 1st sem itself if advisor (whom he’ll meet in last week of May) allows. Hard to talk to these kids in getting to do anything. I’d rather (at the least) audit, goto office hrs (good point you mentioned ) and then take 230 in spring.
Thanks for the note and the first hand experience. Will make my son read these responses and re read the syllabus, discuss with Advisor and make a call. He’s planing to take 230honors math in first sem and that does worries me. Looked at the syllabus just now and 230honors has more content than 230 and 4 credits. Tangentially, many kids to engineering and physics stream will mostly take AP physics C and chemistry and according to PSU website that grants so many credits including ones from AP calculus C that there won’t be much classes in 1st sem something I don’t like
He can’t take the Honors version because, unless things have changed, 230H is going to be proof-based.
Students in the Honors math sequence need to start in 140H - all will have had calculus (AB/BC generally) and thus learn then how proof based math “works”. You can’t jump into it at level 3 without the background. Even for A- level AP calc students with a 5 on the exam, the honors sequence is hard. (A good number just switch to Math 141).
He shouldn’t “just ask”, he really should email the undergraduate chair in the math dept and ask for an old, retired final for 141 and see how he does. Once he’s seen how well he managed that exam, he can talk with the Schreyer adviser.
The first semester, it’s recommended he take no more than 14 credits.
137H is a requirement (and a great class); 104H is recommended if he hesitates between Applied Statistics and Actuarial math&stats but he can take any social science class.
Stats 184 or Stats 300 are requirements for the statistics major (300 is the intro class for students who got a 5 in AP Stats; he would take 184 in the Spring).
That leaves one calculus class. If he audits 141 or 230 he would need to take both 184 and 300.
He should keep in mind that one semester of 14 weeks 3-4 hours a week covers the equivalent of 9-10 months of a HS course meeting 5 times a week. 1 college hour = 3-4 HS hours. Part of the time spent in class, solving problems or asking questions is actually done at your desk, on your own, and during office hours.
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If 141h specifically is the prerequisite for 230h, then why is the prerequisite listed in the bulletin as “MATH 141 or MATH 141B or MATH 141E or MATH 141G or MATH 141H”
OP would need to ask that specific question to someone in Math AND Schreyer adviser.
(Schreyer adviser’s recommendation will know the details.)
AFAIK: All 141 versions are supposed to cover the same basics, the B version with Biology applications, the E version with Engineering applications, the G version with Mines/Meteorology/Earth science applications, and the H version proof based.
However, while you could presumably go from the Biology application to 230 in the same way as you’d go from the G application to 230, going from proof based calculus to multivariate proof based calculus would not be the same as going from regular calculus to multivariate proof based calculus.
I’m not in the secret of the PSU Math undergraduate dept. For all I know they could have decided the H version will no longer be proof based.
But if 230H is more in-depth and proof-based, as it used to, going into it from Calc BC would be a major problem (and going into it from 141 not H would also likely be near impossible since almost all enrolled would be coming from proof based Calc).
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Picking summer classes, does anyone know weather photo 100 or earth 101 would be easier, The photo 100 meats MWF only for 50 mins but the earth 101 is every day for an hour and 15 mins.
Are you a freshman in LEAP?
What would your major be and are you undecided?
Which class or subject do you dread most?
I think all of this discussion around 140/141 is a good reminder that college is intensely personal experience and it depends on what you are looking to get out of it. It also depends upon the student - are they well-prepared? Are they willing to buckle down when things get hard? Will they accept a lower grade for a harder class? Do they want to double-major? be super-involved? study abroad? There is no ‘one size fits all’ in college.
I will also share that a common misconception is that “A” kids think they are going to rock it at college and may be in for a rude awakening. This is where it becomes strategic to plan a schedule with a balance of STEM and non-STEM classes to work all sides of the brain. It is also important not to overdo it freshman fall. Football weekends and activities and campus life are time-suckers that students may not plan for. It is better to be successful in 15 credits that are balanced than to take 18 credits and struggle. Every year, there are SHC kids who flamed out after freshman fall for exactly that reason.
so @Mom-of-2025-and-2028 … you’ve gotten lots of advice. Take what works for you and disregard the rest. But whatever the decision, have your student commit to it and they should buy in. What do they think is the right path?
as always, @MYOS1634 chimes in with terrific advice. thank you for your commitment to helping parents and students be successful.
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@Kingshockey88 just because the Photo 100 meets less time doesn’t mean it is an easier class. How good are you at photography? Are you aiming towards an Art degree? Or are you thinking something like Marketing or Communications where this could be a periphally-helpful class?
I’m surprised this class only meets that few hours - that is unusual for a LEAP class. I would call the LEAP office and ask if it is a typo if that is your main criteria for choosing it.
Asking undergrad chair for old retired version of 141 is something I’ll ask my son to do. He’ll meet the regular Councellor in May 4th week and not sure when he would meet honors advisor (probably after joining). If he’s comfortable with 141 and truly feels like he can work it out, then advisor can suggest. Hope math department responds to such requests. Thank you.
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Make sure he words it as in, future Stats or Math major, expecting 5 on BC exam(&class from x HS ← if known HS), thinking of starting in 230 1st semester freshman year but wants to check covered all the material in 141 first since ALEX placement wouldn’t readily indicate what is most appropriate and fully aware BC is not an exact equivalent of 141.
Yes will do @MYOS1634 . Thanks for the tip. My son is going to be majoring in Physics in eberly science. He was also of the opinion that he can skip the “ALEX placement test” for Math since he already has received a note from Penn state that they have granted 8 Math credits to him. this is what my son shared with me. not sure if this has anything to do with ALEX tests or it has to be taken compulsorily no matter whether AP/IB credits applies. thanks for any clarification in this regards and would appreciate it.
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Yea im going to be a freshman in leap, for me the photo 100 seems harder for me personaly because i feel like there is a lot of picture taking outside of class time. I am undecided but i want to eventually switch to engineering, when checking the math classes for leap there only was math 21, 22, and 26, for me i scored high on the aleks math test and would want a class like math 140 , So basically the only leap classes that are avaible arent really for my majior other than english 15 which is a penn state requirement.
yea i was wondering that too, when i checked the penn state prides and under the “Photography lion” the details said that class only met 3 days, i think i will call the office about that.
Try to register for the Calculus and Speech Leap Pride.
(Click on “quantification” criteria).
If you are thinking engineering, @MYOS1634 is correct.
Look at the following prides:
- Calculus and Speech or Writing. This would get Math 140 out of the way.
- Engineering Design. This is a required class for freshman. It is a time-intensive class with less required outside of class - which holds true for summer or fall.
Both of these will not be easy. In summer or in fall. But if you want to be successful at Penn State, use summer to your advantage. Don’t look for the easiest class. Look for the class that you can:
- take in a smaller environment with more professor interaction
- make fall easier/less stressful
- take a weed-out because summer will be ‘easier’.
This is an opportunity to get ahead of your peers and be successful early. Take advantage of that!
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I tried to look for that but there wasnt any prides with math 140 available and i checked a couple of weeks when classes for summer opened and there wasnt any, im guessing its a popular class?