"Penn State frat death continues trend of criminal charges in events once deemed only ‘regrettable’ "
http://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/05/penn_state_frat_death_continue.html#incart_river_home
@doschicos (#213) that This American Life story was a major factor in one of my kids deciding not to attend Penn State and to not join a frat.
As someone says above, many kids tell their parents that their frat or sorority is not like the ones portrayed here. Can parents really forbid their kids from joining Greek life? They can withhold the funds but many kids have jobs that let them pay the dues. The kids do not necessarily choose to pledge a frat to be hazed, but once on the path find it hard to get off. There is also the feeling of invincibility that comes with being 18 or 19, and the thought that if all those “brothers” went through this and survived, we will too and then we will be brothers.
In this case, it seems the school had ample evidence that bad hazing was continuing. Based on the account by Vivenzio, there is no excuse for the school not taking action.
Maybe this is a good time to take a moment to read the names of those who died as a result of hazing since 2000*…
**
October 6, 2000 - Adrian Heideman
Jan. 29, 2001 - Joseph T. Green
November 4, 2001 - Chad Meredith
October 10, 2002 - Albert Santos
February 12, 2002 - Benjamin Klein
February 14, 2002 - Daniel Reardon
September 9, 2002 - Kristin High and Kenitha Saafir
March 12, 2003 - Walter Dean Jennings
Oct. 20, 2003 - Kelly Nester
September 17, 2004 - Gordie Bailey
February 2, 2005 - Matthew Carrington
Aug. 28, 2005 - Kenny Luong
December 10, 2005 - Phanta “Jack” Phoummarath
November 17, 2006 - Tyler Cross
March 30, 2007 - Gary DeVercelly
November 8, 2008 - Brett Griffin
October 5, 2008 - Johnny D. Smith
November 18, 2008 - Harrison Kowiak
November 20, 2008 - Michael Starks
December 2, 2008 - Carson Starkey
March 1, 2009 - Arman Partamian
October 21, 2009 - Donnie Wade
October 15, 2010 - Samuel Mason
2010 - Victoria Carter and Briana Latrice Gather
February 25, 2011 - George Desdunes
2011 - Robert Champion
November 2, 2012 - David Bogenberger
February 2012 - William Torrance
2012 - Philip Dhanens
March 26, 2012 - Robert Tipton
April 20, 2013 - Marvell Edmondson and Jauwan Holmes
December 8, 2013 - Chun “Michael” Deng
July 1, 2014 - Armando Villa
September 22, 2014 - Tucker Hipps
November 14, 2014 - Nolan Burch
November 17, 2014 - Trevor Duffy
March 18, 2016 - Raheel Siddiqui
February 4, 2017 - Tim Piazza
**
41 deaths in 17 years. Something needs to change.
*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hazing_deaths_in_the_United_States
@tomSrofBoston "
"Penn State frat death continues trend of criminal charges in events once deemed only ‘regrettable’ "
Maybe this is the only solution that will change the behavior. If there is a 1,000 count indictment every time this happens, and the kids start doing real time, I am guessing that is a message the Greeks and their alumni will understand.
I guarantee you that at the trials of each of the 18 accused, there will be plenty of evidence that this behavior was completely out of character for them, too.
When I say they aren’t monsters, I’m not trying to absolve them of responsibility. What I’m trying to do is avoid absolving the rest of us of responsibility–I mean, if they’re just evil monsters, we can punish them, and it’s all good, right? We’ll tell the fraternities not to recruit evil monsters, and this won’t happen any more, right? The fact that this happens–and I’m sure, almost happens-over and over at many different colleges tells me that the problem isn’t monsters, but a culture in which alcohol and peer pressure result in terrible behavior.
Maybe requiring that the fraternities consent to surprise inspections for alcohol, and then actually doing them on a frequent basis, would help. Expulsion for hazing might help as well.
The writers of Genesis relate the story/parable of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden told by God that they can have anything but the fruit of one tree. Eve is tempted by a snake to try the forbidden fruit and Adam goes along with her. Apparently, our inability to say “no” goes back a long ways, as the writers recognized. Hunt is right - if we cannot see ourselves or our own kids in people like Piazza and many of these frat members, it just perpetuates the problem.
Turning them into “monsters” makes them something not human.
It’s also worth remembering that in that Genesis story, the first young man ever born in the world murders the second one.
I agree and appreciate your reasoned posts Hunt.
@HUNT “It’s also worth remembering that in that Genesis story, the first young man ever born in the world murders the second one.”
So the first Fraternity ended in Fratricide. Not good.
Parents are not as helpless as they like to portray themselves. They just prefer the path of least resistance, since that’s human nature. So what if your child works and has his own money? If you care about this issue and have concerns about your child’s ability to make good choices under peer pressure, then make the stipulation that all the money he earns goes for his books, shampoo, pizza etc. and then toward tuition if there’s any left over. Parents can indeed tell a son they will not pay for college at all if he joins a fraternity. It just takes courage and a firm backbone. A friend of mine’s ex-wife is an alcoholic, so he told his daughter he would no longer support her in college if she joined a sorority or if he learned she was drinking. The end.
HarvestMoon1@ let me be clear. I am not condoning the behavior of the Frat brothers. I am not saying that they shouldn’t be convicted of manslaughter. Apparently, they kicked him, threw drinks on him, and smacked him. Thats disgusting. My point is simply to say that at the end of the day this could have all been avoided if Piazza knew his limits and just said “NO MORE”
Im not saying its easy. As a matter of fact its very difficult, but you have to respect yourself, before anyone else will.
That’s similar to saying “Well maybe that girl wouldn’t have been sexually assaulted if she just knew her limit and stayed somewhat sober”
One of the texts recovered from the incident, talked about being force fed alcohol. Sounds like you couldn’t say no.
I think it’s difficult to calmly discuss the degree to which fraternity pledges should resist hazing. Sure, they should resist it and walk away, but clearly, many don’t. I suspect the truth is that most of them already know that there is going to be hazing and heavy drinking, and they are onboard with that. Heck, a lot of them have fathers who went through it and who have overall fond memories of the fraternity experience. So, while it would be nice for pledges to say “no,” I think it’s unrealistic to expect culture change to come from that direction. It has to come from adults who have the power to enforce changes.
I think the residential fraternal structure has issues. There is very little in the way of adult supervision. You are relying on the decision making skills of young men with relatively little accountability. The very fact that they were serving alcohol to someone obviously underage is violating the law. I think if fraternities are to continue then they should pay to have an adult supervisor who lives in the house and a structure put in place for students who are accountable to him/her. It would give others a person to go to immediately or at least call anonymously if they felt things were getting out of hand. Peer pressure is powerful and we see from the situation at Penn State how a handful of students with influence can overcome the better instincts of other students. I appreciate the social value of fraternities and sororities but question the way they are run.
Philbegas…dont get me started. The fact is that I have a son and a daughter. My S went off to college and joined a frat. He didn’t go through half of the things that this frat made their pledges go through and he was miserable. He basically called home one day in tears. He wanted out… but it was hard. To make a long story short he sucked it up and told the president of the frat he was quitting in the middle of the pledge period. They weren’t happy, but he moved on and never regretted it for a second. Was that difficult? Yes! But he was able to say “NO”. He had already seen and heard things that were going on in the frat that made him very uncomfortable. He knew he had to leave before he put his wellbeing in danger. My D is in a sorority. We had warned her numerous times of our concerns. She is very close to her brother, who also made it clear, what can happen when she is pledging. So she went out of her way during rush to find a sorority that was more academic based and didn’t haze. Some of the sororities had a reputation for hazing. She didn’t bother with those. When she was selected for her sorority the next thing she did was made sure that her Big knew she didn’t want to ever be pushed to drink or do anything she didn’t want to do. The truth is that she was never forced to do anything, because she made it very clear that she wouldn’t tolerate it. She has truly enjoyed her Greek life and wouldn’t trade it for anything. But it is up to the individual student to set limits and management expectations, from the beginning. Then if your wishes aren’t respected, you need to move on. I have raised my kids to understand that no one is ever going to look out for them. So they have to do that for themselves. I have explained that if they go through life looking for everyone to love them and like them, then they will never be happy because thats just not possible.
TheGFG@ I agree with you. These children have to be taught from the second they are born to be strong individuals. Not everyone will like them, and although that may hurt, life will go on. Sometimes, in life the journey is lonely because you must carve your own path.
Lastly, Philegas, …I have also told my D not drink to the point that you have no idea what is going on (black out drunk). Why put yourself in a position where you can be taken advantage of? No one has the right to violate you. But why are you even playing with fire by making yourself vulnerable?
So I feel that way whether its my child or not. I think the buck has to stop with “YOU”.
Hunt@ How can the adults force the change? If kids want to drink they are going to find a way. Thats why it needs to start with the person who puts that drink to their mouth.
http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2012/08/penn_state_does_the_university.html
Erickson promises change
Penn State President Rodney Erickson has vowed that his university, while it cannot undo history, can become an agent for change and reaffirm its “core values of honesty, integrity and justice.”
“I promise you, we will learn from our past and take the steps that will allow us to emerge and grow into a stronger, better university.”
Hopefully they will learn from the latest tragedy at PSU better than the last.
This was written by a PSU Student earlier this year.
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/opinion/editorials/article_ef670526-70c0-11e6-a202-1f38a58c7167.html
I attended a school with NO fraternities or sororities, and excessive drinking was a problem then and from what I hear is more of a problem today. There are news stories every year about large numbers of students transported to ERs for alcohol poisoning, but that is just when it hits the news cycle. I am sure it happens a lot more unreported and/or untreated.
Special interest groups in our country have spent millions if not billions of dollars convincing Americans that recreational drug use is every American’s right – used when, for whatever purposes, and to whatever extent we want. Alcohol is a recreational drug, just like others. So many in this country fight for no regulation on their ability to be intoxicated. Why do we act surprised when kids grow up hearing this message and then act on it? We are just self-deluded, thinking that an “enlightened, liberated culture” will make good decisions. A person under the influence of drugs is the last person to make “wise” decisions about how much more intoxicant they (or others around them) can handle. As a society, we reap what we sow.
^Red Herring? Nobody on this thread is arguing that there should be no regulation. We are simply offering up the viewpoint that in America a lot of people don’t teach their kids how to drink responsibly so then they end up in college surrounded by high alcohol content jungle juice and plastic handle vodka and they don’t know how to handle themselves. We think that similarly to the rest of the civilized world the drinking age should be a bit lower, especially for beer and wine (in my opinion).
Also yes, irresponsible partying will happen regardless of whether there are fraternities or not. I spent more time than I would like in Isla Vista (where everybody from UCSB parties) and it was disgusting. Entire parties turned into coke dens at various times.
But we are not just discussing irresponsible partying. We are discussing the CRIMINAL behavior that takes place during hazing rituals at fraternities. Nobody should be forced to drink obscene amounts of alcohol in order to join an exclusive brotherhood. I know people like to argue fraternities are great ways to make lifelong friends but if your lifelong friends are based around the fact you all got alcohol poisoning together then holy s*** what a low bar for frienship!