Culturally, it’s more than just how we regard alcohol and drinking. This was a strapping young man. He played football - a contact sport where people willingly get slammed to the ground on a regular basis. Be tough. Don’t quit. Don’t be a sissy. Play through the pain. I did it - so can you.
I’m sure if you had seen Timothy Piazza earlier in the day and spoken with him about the fraternity events planned for that night, he would have told you he would be fine. He could handle it. No big deal. Like it’s some perverted test of their manhood.
Sounds like these particular frat members are more accurately described as remedial candidates for the romper room/prison than college students/young adults…
In the video of the GMA interview in post #278 with Kordel, you can see a scar on Kordel’s forehead which, according the the Presentment for the case, occurred when Kordel himself fell and hit his head during his own pledging period at the same fraternity during the the previous fall.
@cobrat My point is coming from a cultural position not from a legal stand. Of course in the eyes of the law, the 18 boys are to blame. And as I mentioned before, I am not against them going to jail for what has occurred. My point is simple, regardless of what others think…when do young people learn to stand up for themselves? When do they say, “Hmmm… this is too much?”
As others have mentioned on this thread, our society actually propagates this behavior- Father’s relay stories of their frat glory days to their sons, parents drink irresponsibly in front of their kids, or allow underage drinking in their own homes. In addition to that parents don’t instill in their children enough coping mechanisms in their children to help them overcome peer pressure, so instead they succumb to it. We as a culture need to make changes. Its not easy, but it can be done.
I don’t understand how permitting “underage drinking” in their own homes is part of the problem. My parents taught me to drink safely at home and I partially thank them for the fact I never ended up in the hospital.
By the way though, Penn state has a total enrollment of 99 thousand students? It does seem statistically more likely that unfortunate things would happen there than at other schools.
@philbegas thats my point exactly. Someone (your parents in this case) taught you to be responsible. I was brought up that way too. I did the same thing for my children, but thats not always the case. So without that sense of maturity and responsibility it can be difficult or nearly impossible to say “NO”.
“At least 37 states have some sort of exception in their drinking laws that allow underage people to drink at home and within the company of family members.”
PA is not one of them on the map. Any connections? If kids taste beer when young they may not like it or they have experience how to handle drinks.
@philbegas – I think that in many of your posts you are trying to extend your own experience to make it the norm of what is possible or even good for everyone. Your parents taught you to drink at home, you regularly got drunk with friends, but didn’t cross the line, and then sobered up gradually while you are having a blast with friends, and you’ve never ended up in the hospital. It may be that you have a great ability to exhibit self-control when intoxicated and not “cross the line”. You may have a friend group without peer pressure to drink more. It may be that you have been lucky a couple times not to have had something more serious happen. I don’t know. But I do believe that repeatedly saying “I know how to walk the edge and not cross over because my parents taught me to drink responsibly in the home while underaged” as an argument that everyone who had an upbringing like yours would be bound to stay out of trouble is assuming way to much.
I am happy that you found a balance that you truly enjoy, and have been safe. But I think you are indulging a little much in trying to use your own experience to prove a rule.
@dungareedoll:
Imagine your son had called and you told him to tough it out. That hazing is normal even if it’s tough.
Imagine your son had been a legacy who’d been indoctrined into the idea he “had” to be in that fraternity, that not getting in would be being a loser compared to father, grandfather, uncle, brother. Or perhaps “not a real man”.
That quitting was not possible, it was better taking risks.
Imagine you yelled or laughed at your son for disparaging the fraternity you were part of, or for wasting the terrific opportunity before him.
Imagine your relationship with your son is such he’d stay rather than call you.
Imagine your son had been manipulated into doing things he’s ashamed of and he feels he’s stuck, can’t talk about it, is guilty too.
Imagine his fraternity/sorority starts pledges one week BEFORE school starts, so that they have no friends yet and no way of knowing which fraternity/sorority will be a good fit.
Imagine your son was on the last night before he was made a brother.
Imagine you had never told your daughter not to drink to oblivion. Imagine that you had modeled the opposite.
Or that you’d let her believe that being popular was the most important thing - do what it takes.
Imagine you had shy r introverted kids. Geeky kids, uncertain kids, kids who’ve been bullied before, lonely kids looking for acceptance.
Or kids who on the contrary have always been popular and suddenly find themselves lost in the crowd and try to hold on to something.
In short, the fact your children were able to realize the dangers and find a way out doesn’t mean this should be seen as an individual responsibility. When there are so many accidents and deaths, it becomes a public issue and probably a public health/public safety issue.
Academic fraternities are totally different from social fraternities. Academic fraternities are tied to academic departments, their meetings take place in the departments or in official function facilities, oftentimes the students are dressed professionally (depending on the subject) or formally, etc. It’s the opposite of “letting loose”. They’re clubs with Greek Letters but are not in any way related to social fraternities.
@MYOS1634 Your correct, that this is a public issue and probably a public health/public safety issue. Thats why your list of “imagines” needs to come to an end. I agree and mentioned in a previous post that parents are a part of the problem, as is the over all environment a child is raised.
And for the record my kids were able to say, “NO” because of the strong familial support system they have. That doesn’t mean that they weren’t ridiculed or lonely or bullied. They encountered all of that. I just didn’t let them feel sorry for themselves. Life is tough but they need to keep on pushing…You have to pick yourself up and start again. You can’t be a victim…
I think it is far more complicated than simply banning Greek organizations in this country. The fact that these incidents are so sporadic and split among many colleges and different states adds so much complexity. And if you ban kids from living in Greek housing do you ban club houses or where do you draw the line with off campus housing?
I have to admit I was happy number 3 said no to frats because he got the full court press to join but I know that means nothing with regard to parties…it does however eliminate the hazing and for the life of me with all the laws and pressure to stop hazing I do not know why it still occurs. Perhaps drinking to excess is not seen as hazing?
My perspective also addresses the cultural position.
Focus on the organizations, leaders, and older brothers who organized and perpetuated the hazing/forced drinking and then attempted to cover it up by failing to get help in a timely manner and worse, assault the brother who wanted to call 911 early on when it could have made a difference by throwing the book at them and subjecting them to well-merited widespread social opprobrium. This includes well-merited opprobrium on Penn State U for recognizing this organization and thus, effectively giving them the stamp of U approval and continuing access to students.
Focusing the criticism/punishment on the actual perpetrators and only on them will do much more to ensure everyone gets the message it’s unacceptable/criminal without diluting the responsibility to the point of meaningless or worse, blaming the victim(s) and thus, further adding insult to injury and effectively diluting culpability from those who really deserve it.
If the university/organization leadership and culture doesn’t tolerate serious crimes and bad behaviors, the rest tends to follow more easily.
Re article linked in #290 - why on earth would PSU’s VP of student affairs think the administration should “lift some of the restrictions during parents’ weekend” as a gesture of good will towards the fraternities??
PSU seems like pushover parents who fold when the teenagers complain that they’re being mean …
"The fraternity’s chapter president acknowledge the party violations during a meeting with Sims, who said he thought the lifting of restrictions during the weekend would help the administration’s relations with greek life. Some of the restrictions were lifted for the weekend, but Sigma Alpha Mu violated the ones in place.
“Close the frats. Close them all.” @greenbutton, while I wholeheartedly agree, them’s fighting words here on CC. I can just see all the fraternity/sorority apologists coming to this thread to say how THEIR Greek organizations are fine, upstanding, supportive philanthropic groups… (isert massive eye roll here.)
And yet EVERY YEAR there are drinking deaths and rapes associated with these fine, fine institutions…