Why is that there is so much universal agreement that there is a problem, but one of the solutions that is “out of bounds” is simply to enforce the laws. This includes drinking age and, in some cases, drinking bans on campus. We all want to talk about how to teach teenagers to “break the law responsibly”. I’m NOT SAYING THAT ENFORCING LAWS IS A STAND ALONE SOLUTION – so don’t respond with flames to that effect. But, honestly, the effectiveness of any solution mentioned on here would be doubled or tripled when combined with enforcing laws – on underage drinking, on those that provide it, and those that sell it.
So to the question – why is that simple solution so hard for us to stomach? Is drinking alcohol really that intrinsic to the full experience of being a young adult in America?
@MomofJandL-So if the parents can’t make their kids responsible than we are back to the kid. They need to know their limits and be independent thinkers.
No its not easy or comfortable but its ultimately your life to live
I think the problem can start younger. We have all heard about HS senior spring break trips to Mexico or the Caribbean where the kids drink too much. Who thinks that is appropriate. Do those kids go on to heavy drinking in college because they have been sold a line that this is how to have fun?
College students go on booze filled trips to the beaches of Florida and it is considered something to laugh about later. The police departments need to start reporting how cases of alcohol poisonings happened daily and how many assaults. They would risk the wrath of the local Chamber of Commerce.
@HarvestMoon1 “The “oh, it happens everywhere” mentality just illustrates how far gone we all are with normalizing these situations.”
I do believe that it happens almost everywhere. However, I don’t believe that means I normalize the situation. What I do believe is that, in my opinion, [Expletive] this is happening everywhere and it’s about time we address the problem rather than continuing that status of quo of “boys will be boys.” I’m not complacent, I’m angry.
This time it was Penn State. But, honestly, I can so very much see a similar incident happening at my alma mater. And, yes, part of the problem lies with the parents, and part of the problem lies with a person’s self-esteem to say they don’t want to drink and/or be hazed. And, part of the problem lies with the bystanders who fall into a mob mentality and don’t speak up - a sin of omission. And, part of the problem is a system in which stupid immature brains try to cover up their transgressions rather than seek help out of fear of punishment. If those 18 boys called an ambulance in the first place, would that have changed anything?
And, yes, there does need to be adult oversight in these situations. Not because it is “helicoptering” but because 18-21-year-olds don’t have the life experiences to make the right decisions 100 percent of the time.
Here’s what I think needs to happen to this fraternity: The fraternity itself should be banned for at least 30 years, the boys directly responsible should face charges, and the boys indirectly responsible for either covering it up or not doing anything should be expelled. I’ll give grace to the one brother who actually tried to do the right thing.
Well I guess it all depends on how you define the “it” @tutumom2001. Excessive drinking and fraternity hazing I think we can all agree is quite common on university campuses. But what I don’t think that you see often is 18 fraternity brothers standing around for 12 hours watching a pledge die right in front of their eyes. That is a whole new level, which is why I think the case is getting global coverage.
As I stated above being “transported” is unfortunately common in freshman dorms and in frat houses due to the fact that many new to campus do not know their limits. I know it happened enough in my D"s dorm to cause me concern – but these students called 911 for assistance - that is the norm as far as I know.
What’s interesting is historically IFC frats (traditional social fraternities) are usually heavily regulated by the IFC board and houses are regularly kept in check. At least in my college the cultural and professional fratneriies haze harder because they aren’t governed by a council like regular social ones are.
“I wonder how many of the accused still think that mom and dad will get them off the hook.”
I can’t blame them for thinking that, since it may yet come to pass. We don’t know how outstanding their lawyers will be or what mistakes the prosecution might make.
I don’t think those 18 fraternity members thought they were watching someone die. I think they thought they could cover up his injuries, and that he would recover, and that he could be persuaded not to report the hazing. They did not intend for him to die or expect him to die. But because they took that chance, he died, and that’s what’s causing the outrage. My expectation is that a lot of hazing injuries get covered up all over the nation every year, and that most of the pledges recover, It is the outcome of this case that is the exception, not the behavior.
@MomofJandL - you are right of course. And what will go unacknowledged is how many parents, many probably reading this thread, who if things had turned out differently and heard the report from their kids later would have told their children how wise they were to lay the kid down in a safe place, think of putting a backpack on him to keep him from choking on his vomit, and keep an eye on him until he got better in the morning, all without making him go through the embarrassment of a ER visit that probably wasn’t needed.
@MomofJandL- I agree too. Lets all keep in mind that never in a million years would they think this kid wasn’t going to make it. The 18 frat boys, themselves, had all survived this initiation, so why wouldn’t Piazza? It doesn’t excuse their behavior in the long run, but they are all young too. Again, we are expecting these young men to have more maturity, common sense, and responsible thinking then Piazza, himself. In the meantime, they are all about the same age and stupid enough to have allowed themselves to be put through this same ritual. So for anyone to think that they should have been more attentive or accountable just doesn’t make sense. Again, their stupidity is no excuse and they deserve what is coming to them. But this is the lesson that up and coming college students need to realize. No one will look out for you, but YOU! So be smart, say no, move away from groups that apply peer pressure. There are other ways of making friends and securing a feeling of belonging at college. And if all else fails, then parents need to remind their kids that they are actually there for an academic education. The social stuff is just gravy. Get your damn degree, get out and make something of yourself.
I don’t believe they intended for Timothy Piazza to die – if there was any evidence of that the charge would not have been involuntary manslaughter.
But “taking that chance” as expressed above is precisely what I contend most students do not do. A college in the same city where my D attends college released data on “transports” due to alcohol and drugs. Since 2012 there were 496 students transported to the hospital due to distress calls placed on their behalf to the campus police or security desk. A sad statistic on one hand but encouraging on the other in that these kids got the help they needed.
“But “taking that chance” as expressed above is precisely what I contend most students do not do. A college in the same city where my D attends college released data on “transports” due to alcohol and drugs. Since 2012 there were 496 students transported to the hospital due to distress calls placed on their behalf to the campus police or security desk. A sad statistic on one hand but encouraging on the other in that these kids got the help they needed.”
It is good that kids these days will do the transports.
They obviously don’t have the data on this. But what do you think the number is on the kids who were put to bed to sleep it off (and who woke up fine)?
50 times the transport number? 5,000 times the transport number?
Presumably each of the 18 kids involved had been through this drill many many times before, either as a haze-ee or a haze-or, and no one ever got anything worse than a hang over.
These PSU kids should have done the transport, obviously. They really screwed up badly. Which can happen late at night with a mob of impaired and scared 20 year olds.
“The 18 frat boys, themselves, had all survived this initiation, so why wouldn’t Piazza?”
Maybe because they didn’t fall down the stairs twice head first?! How much common sense does one need to realize that wasn’t good, when combined with rigidness, pale skin, other symptoms they googled? One guy apparently was smart enough and not self-centered enough to realize it wasn’t good.
And why are we calling them boys?
And yes, college kids drink - often too much - but they aren’t forced to drink to the point of passing out at a dorm party. That’s why hazing should be dealt with differently than just more run of the mill college drinking.
When I was in college, and active in a Fraternity, one of my brothers fell off the railing at a party. He was drunk and he hit something on the way down. We got him to an ER where he, in fact, ruptured his spleen. The situation at PSU is different as my brother was not being forced to drink and this was not an pledge ritual. Looking back, although there was a lot of alcohol involved, common sense did prevail and he immediately got the help he needed.
I believe that none of those young men intended for the outcome that occurred, but they put themselves and their future brothers at great risk by continuing this hazing ritual. Top that off with not only a lack of common sense that showed by most of the members and the active silencing of the one young man that tried to do something and we have the horrifying result we have today. One young man is dead. Countless lives are dramatically changed as the result of an entirely preventable situation.
If you read the Presentment, it is quite apparent from texts before, during, and after, that attempts were made to cover things up. They knew that the hazing, the drinking, etc. were activities that would get them in trouble as a frat. They knew Tim wasn’t doing well and this wasn’t just a normal passing out. They rolled the dice putting their own concerns ahead of a pledge/fellow student’s wellbeing. They lost big time because it was a self-centered and stupid bet. To equate this to “they all survived their initiation” is either missing a whole lot of facts in the case because you didn’t read the Presentment, excuse making “boys will be boys” crap, or quite callous - or all three.
@jpc763 I think your assessment is right. If you had not gotten help for your brother for 14 hours, he may have not fared so well either. I think that in part, it highlights the difference between a real brother and a fraternity brother. I suspect that if the victim had been the fraternity president’s real brother, different decisions would have been made.
@Much2learn - He was my fraternity brother, not my real brother but he was also a good friend of several years. There is no way we would have let him sit for 14 hours even if he insisted he was fine. He fell about 15 feet into a parking lot.
I do believe that I became very close to many of my fraternity brothers in college and would have done the same thing for each of them. I believe that if the young man who had fallen down the stairs had been another active member who the president knew well, the result would also have been different.
@doschicos - I am not sure if that reply was responding to me. Hazing has no place in any organization, period. It is a very destructive practice with absolutely no upside. The brothers took that risk. Had IFC or Beta national found out that the gauntlet was still being used they would have taken swift action against that house. The fraternity knew that and did actively try to cover their tracks both during the 14 hours and in the days, weeks and months after. Inexcusable behavior and they deserve the charges that have been filed.
@northwesty I think one of things that will hurt these boys at trial is the googling they did throughout those 12 hours. Those online searches suggest at least some of the fraternity members had more than an inkling that Timothy Piazza may have been in trouble.