LOL, Nationally 1800 college students approximately die each year from excessive alcohol and alcohol-related unintentional injuries and clearly not all of those are men in frats but even if ALL 1800 were in frats which they are not, there are 6,186 fraternity chapters on roughly 800 college campuses (2014/2015) with 100,579 men initiated into fraternities in fall of 2014 so extrapolating total men in frats at any given moment could roughly be said to be 3-400,000. Personally greek life was not for me, nor did any of my kids choose it, but I just think it’s rather silly to think that frats are the root cause for all 1800 annual alcohol related deaths when truth of the matter is frat deaths from alcohol are probably a very small percentage of total deaths from alcohol. I think it’s a waste of brain-power and energy to get all righteous about Penn State when deaths connected to alcohol happen across the country. Alcohol abuse on college campuses is a topic that I feel strongly about and IMO is not limited to frats and sororities by any means…but carry on with the Penn State and frat bashing.
Thank you for the detailed link @bester1
If I was Piazza’s parents, I would want a really terrible punishment for Jonah Neuman & Ed Gilmartin
@philbegas…thank you. I happy to hear I am not boring you!!! Thanks again.
@TheAtlantic When you say they sent a text message to a fraternity member saying nobody likes them, I’m guessing it’s the member who said that he tried to convince them to call the police?
@philbegas Yes, it was after his interview on Good Morning America.
I wonder how many of the accused still think that mom and dad will get them off the hook.
@TomSrOfBoston I wonder as well. I get the impression that they’re not very remorseful for their crimes.
I’m not going to get on a soap box and rant about the evils of alcohol or other mind altering substances. I don’t drink, but have no problem with those that do including DW and DS. I don’t do drugs, but recently voted for marijuana legalization. Obviously operating a vehicle is a big no no while impaired and I do get on a soap box about that.
I just wonder how long universities will want to be affiliated with organizations that tarnish their reputations. Liability, both monetary and to prestige, will likely lead to greater restrictions on Greek life. Traditions and group affiliation are strong forces, but so is universities’ desire to protect its assets including reputation. More schools may decide that Greek life just isn’t worth the risk and chose to end affiliation with Greek organizations.
Now for the 18 entitled snowflakes of beta at PSU, you aren’t brothers. You pledged to support each other and when you had a chance to really support one of your “brothers”, you failed. You instead chose to cya or ignore a friend in need. I’m glad you were banished.
Penn State Frat House Death: Fast Drinking, Slow Death, Frantic Coverup In Grand Jury Timeline
This provides an quick and easy read of the timeline of events for those that have not read nor want to read the entire Grand Jury Report. It may be disturbing for some.
After you read the Grand Jury Timeline…this was not an unfortunate alcohol overdose as one poster likes to suggest happens everywhere(Boys will be boys mentality so stop picking on PSU - which is only more denial and preservation - because my kid goes there)…this was a death from abuse…alcohol, physical and mental abuse. I do not think people are bashing PSU but the fact is that it this happened at PSU. It is absolutely gruesome and inhumane. There was not any compassion only a mode of self preservation…and that is very different than drinking too much and choking to death.
Brother text reads…
“If need be, just tell them what I told you guys, found him behind an away bar the next morning around 10 a.m. and he was freezing-cold, but we decided to call 911 right away because the kid’s health was paramount,” the text reads.
The grand jury concluded Piazza’s death was “not simply an unfortunate accident, but was the direct result of encouraged reckless conduct that demonstrated a reckless disregard for human life.”
People have to deal with these facts so that the culture will someday change.
I don’t think “PSU” is responsible ie., the faculty, the students, the staff in general - I think PSU is a great university in many ways, like tOSU, IU, UMDCP.
However PSU, (its administration, its trustees, I suppose) is responsible for continuing to let the frats “self regulate” despite ample evidence they were unable to do so, for being unwilling to punish and constrain them. It may not be alone in that, so I’m not saying they’re uniquely horrible, but in that case they’d do well pointing out a new way for all other large universities.
I don’t see what about “culture” is going to change to prevent this. But the young men involved need to be publicly identified, shamed, and prosecuted, and that is what is going on.
Decent people would not have hazed him in the first place, or would have helped him immediately if they had found him injured. But not everyone is decent, and not everyone ever has been, and not everyone ever will be. So there needs to be more fear of punishment for doing the wrong thing to keep the not-decent people more in line.
Making sure their punishment is certain and public is a good step toward modifying the behavior of others who would act this way if not for fear of repercussions, and I commend the DA for making this very public.
This is a horrible event and the calous members of the Beta Theta Pi chapter at PSU deserve to be punished. I just want to say that while Fraternities are an easy target for this kind of behaviour, they are BY FAR not the only organization that participates in it. Hazing happens in Marching Bands, in Sports Teams, in Boy Scouts,etc. some with and some without alcohol involved. Major hazing incidents happened in the bands at The Ohio State University and Florida A&M.
When I was in school, my dorm was by far one of the biggest party locations on campus. There was always a party there and we were almost all underage (but were close to Mexico where the drinking age was 18 or 19. Additionally there were MANY unrecognized student groups around campus that had big parties and lots of under-aged drinking. Absolutely no adult or school oversight.
My point is that while it is really easy to point to Fraternities and to point to Penn State, you are missing a whole lot of other instances of the same problem that are much more difficult (or in the case of band, inconceivable) to put a circle around. The problem is that student groups need oversight. Fraternities have the IFC, Dorms have the Residence Association. The band has the music department. These organizations need to be cleaned up. They need to have a tighter control over the student activities.
Banning fraternities will just move the problem off of campus.to places where there is less oversight which, in my opinion will make it happen more often.
Just my opinon. Still an absolutely horrible story.
@jpc763 I agree with you. Im not sure theres anything that any institution can do to change this because its so widespread and not limited to just Greek Life. It is for that reason that the change needs to come from within. And that starts with ones upbringing. Parents need to instill a sense of independent thinking, morals, and empathy in their children. That is the only solution. No one else will ever be able to stop this behavior otherwise. It starts with YOU!
I forgot to mention that organizers of such bashes would have incurred much worse penalties…such as prison time or if they had not completed their military service yet, disenrollment from undergraduate officer training and immediate conscription as an E-1 with that record encouraging those in charge of military personnel to send them to infantry units known for the harshest disciplinary regimens and duty stations(stationed in the remote sticks at the very front line of any possible invasions. And the NCOs/officers in those units would likely be singling them out for extra disciplinary regimens/KP duty.
Also, if conscripts got caught drinking during their term of mandatory service, even when on leave if they’re dumb enough to be caught in drinking establishments, the punishments aren’t limited to those who were caught. The NCO and all officers in the chain of command up to battalion level will also be punished* for failing to maintain military discipline in adequately supervising the conscripts to prevent this from happening in the first place.
- Conscripts are prohibited from drinking in public even when on leave and in civilian clothes. It's very easy to tell who's is in the process of completing their service time because all conscript/conscript officers have their hair shaven off at the beginning of their mandatory service so it's immediately apparent who the conscripts are.
** Including the possibility of being cashiered from service with the associated stigma attached and loss of maintaining their military career until retirement(For career officers and NCOs).
Annnd, we’re back to blaming the parents…
The “oh, it happens everywhere” mentality just illustrates how far gone we all are with normalizing these situations. And in the same breath a very popular chant on this forum is “these kids are adults capable of managing themselves, lower the helicopter blades.” Some students no doubt can manage quite well, many cannot. I agree that excessive drinking happens everywhere – I don’t agree that what happened that night in that fraternity house happens everywhere. In fact I know it doesn’t. During my D’s first year of college she lived in a very social dorm that had a reputation for partying. There were many “transports” that year – the students got the help they needed because their dorm mates dialed 911 at the first sign of trouble. That is the norm as far as I know.
And whoever sent that text message to Kordel Davis is an absolute fool - he’ll pay for that dearly at trial or at sentencing.
@sylvan8798 – Yes, blame the kids – they are the responsible adults, but some are saying the best (long-term) solution lies with parents. Complicated and probably unrealistic, given our culture. But I think the point is that “this could be anyone” is being debated by some. There are many who have gone through college themselves, and raised their kids who are now in/through college, where this activity was all around them, but they were never at risk for becoming a participant. So good parenting is nearly 100% effective, but it may not be 100% realistic as a solution for all.
No I am not blaming the parents. I am saying that is where the future solution can be found. In addition to harsher punishments for the kids who still don’t get the message and feel a need to bend the rules.
Good luck with that. Face it, there is no global parenting police force that is going to make all parents in the world raise their kids the way you want them raised. And if there were, it wouldn’t solve the problem because kids have an annoying habit of being who they are, not who we wish they were.
The best solutions are the ones that are implemented with a clear understanding of the breadth of human behavior. Putting controls in place within fraternities (More, stronger adult oversight) is a great idea. The dues can cover that. Same for the dorm, the band, the athletic program. With a big enough group of people you will get some bad apples, hazing, abuse.
Corporations have internal auditing to catch the bad apples that get through the hiring process. Police departments have internal affairs and civilian oversight committees. And still abuses occur. We can’t stop it all, but we can stop a lot of it and slow down the rest. And have a criminal justice system to take care of what doesn’t get stopped.
Agree 100% @MomofJandL-- but of course to many people “stronger adult oversight” = “helicoptering.”