One would hope those voting would understand the situation and the opportunity to create separation from the Molestations and the Paterno connection. Why can’t they see that in Happy Valley? The timing for the announcement of Jay to the Board of Trustees could.not have been worse.
HarvestMoon1…exactly but it never seems to work. Either the administrators become enabling parents allowing the behavior to continue to get worse year by year or things come crashing down at a tragedy. It happens time and time again. In theory…you are spot on… But it just doesn’t seem to work. That entire “rite of passage” is such an entitlement and it makes me cringe.
These are the charged culprits…
http://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/05/a_look_at_who_is_facing_charge.html
@Nasa2014 Nope. It doesn’t reflect poorly on the school, especially since Brock Turner was expelled and incarcerated. Stanford comes out relatively clean.
I think it’s too simplistic to blame the parents of the 18 boys or to assume that none of them was taught or modeled proper behavior. I do think that a large part of the problem is herd mentality and the desire to fit in. I believe that there are 2 major personality types who join frats and similar groups. One is the bully type and they may be more likely to take on leadership positions in the group. The other is the follower who wants desperately to fit in. Some kids don’t care if they are part of the group and they may be the kids who don’t even bother to rush.
I know this may be harsh but do you think Tim Piazza would have hazed next year’s group if he had survived his hazing?
My D, a proud member of her school’s a capella group, told me that the oldest all male singing group at Cornell (not her school) was recently banned and dismissed permanently for hazing - amongst other atrocities, they compelled new members to anoint their genitals with Icy Hot, sit in freezing tubs and run up and down the street naked and eat disgusting and spicy foods.
I don’t get it…
Couple of points:
Being a bully type and a follower aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive. If anything, most bullies I’ve encountered/dealt with tended to be a mix of both. They bully those who are/perceived to be weaker than them and follow/kiss up to those that are/they perceive to be stronger than themselves.
They also seem to have a great affinity for joining institutions, adhering to traditions which enable/encourage those inclinations on both ends, and crappy/non-existent leadership skills once one penetrates the blustering facade.
Also, not all fraternity/sorority leaders are bullies, followers, and otherwise have authoritarian inclinations of that ilk*. The cousins who had strong character/leadership skills before undergrad and becoming senior officers of their respective organizations(mostly sororities) had no such inclinations.
A few of the ne’er do well cousins who did, no surprise, had crappy/non-existent leadership skills to speak of which were exposed once they entered the post-college world.
- Yes, I concede that despite my disinclination to joining or having much affinity for such organizations personally.
$1,179.30 for alcohol?!! That can purchase a large quantity of alcohol…especially the cheap mass market beers.
if I had 1% of that amount to spare while an undergrad, I’d feel as rich as Croesus…
“I think it’s too simplistic to blame the parents of the 18 boys or to assume that none of them was taught or modeled proper behavior.”
Yes, it’s too simplistic. I was the kid who said “Screw you” to college-wide hazing at significant cost to myself. If I thought it was stupid, I wouldn’t do it, to hell with the consequences, and I’d tell whoever was in charge exactly what I thought of them.
But I came out of the womb that way. I was doing that at three. More importantly, the steel spine that enables one kid to say “Screw this hazing” and walk away has its down sides. My ego strength led me to (1) resist the hazing with effortless, total confidence and (2) flunk out of high school because I wouldn’t do what the teachers told me. There are 18-year-olds who can resist peer pressure, all right, but that’s because they can resist ALL pressure, good and bad. I’ve known six-year-olds that the North Vietnamese couldn’t crack. Anybody who’s raised a kid like that can empathize with what my parents went through.
It’s just goofy to caricature fraternity members as “bullies”, “followers”, “monsters”, etc. I guess if that makes you feel good then continue on … but in the real world the vast majority of them are just regular people. My nephew was in a frat and made lifelong buddies. Now, several years after school, they get together for yearly golfing vacations, weddings, etc.
You know, if this were any other “group” of people, many of the posters here would be chastised and/or banned for inappropriate comments (and rightly so).
While I didn’t agree with the poster who said all frat leaders/members were bullies or followers per my previous post, I also don’t agree with the logic behind your argument.
There’s a major critical difference between criticizing groups based on false stereotypes having practically nothing to do with their immutable physical characteristics or culture and doing so for organizations and its members for behaviors/actions which have been shown to not only been long-standing patterns of behavior, but also ones which were integral to its very demonstrated ethos in actual practice.
This was clearly shown by Beta Theta Pi leaders and older members through their organization and implementing pledging activities which encouraged excessive drinking and hazing by actually forcing them to drink.
When Piazza exhibited serious symptoms from the effects of activities organized by said leadership, they were so concerned about covering up their actions they actually browbeaten and physically assaulted the only brother who urged them to call 911 early on when it could have made a difference.
And then there’s recent history of several other fraternities on the same and other campuses involved in heinous behavior and crimes from a previous link in a post by other posters.
If PSU let it be known among the Greek system that the next incident of hospitalization due to alcohol would result not only in the suspension of that fraternity, but one other chosen at random, would there be a lot more self policing? Especially if they actually did it.
They can’t do it, of course, nor should they, but it would apply some social pressure.
If they threatened to close a frat if someone went to the hospital, it would exponentially increase injuries, because they’d be too afraid to call 911 or bring them in. PSU has amnesty, and has for some time.
@bester1 , you and I are boring everyone else 
“One would hope those voting would understand the situation and the opportunity to create separation from the Molestations and the Paterno connection. Why can’t they see that in Happy Valley?” We do see that in the Centre region, but alumni vote across the country for Trustees. Not everyone here is an alum, not by a long shot, so many of us don’t get a vote. And most alum don’t vote.
Also, “creating separation” has often been perceived as trying to erase/deny/forget the past.
It’s sad but residential fraternities are a Petri dish for bad decisions. Young males minds, no supervision, no accountability except to other young males, alcohol (illegal for most of these students to begin with), a group mentality, fraternity leadership which often operates more like a crime syndicate than a business, put it all together and what could go wrong? I was in a fraternity and I saw all of the behaviors mentioned but never to the degree which occurred at PSU and never with the results. I saw other things that just really should not have happened involving young men who in other circumstances were fine young men but doing things that were likely illegal and definitely immoral. All it would have taken is an adult and student leaders who would have been held accountable to stop some of the abominable behavior.
@greenbutton …thank you for trying to repress my right to express my boring thoughts. That seems to be the strategy(historically speaking) for any controversy coming out of Happy Valley.
oh, and greenbutton…this was the thoughts of one of the Trustees just 1 month before they brought Jay onto the Board…I apologize if this is boring you.
A little news…maybe old?
Clearly they had video supervision, or there would have been almost no case here. My college required an adult house manager, generally at least 25 years old but I don’t know if the age was a requirement.
As for “immoral things,” there certainly were sorority sisters doing immoral things as well.
PSU, well, they are land-grant, and to the extent that other colleges cannot really be punished, it would be refreshing if the State of Pennsylvania revoked their charter, and let others start anew…
I’ve already posted my feelings about this so I won’t reiterate them, but I do have a question. Apparently, there were security cameras inside and outside of this frat. Is that correct? I guess that confuses me because then I would assume that no one would ever contemplate this behavior when they knew they were being filmed. Yes, I know kids video tape things, but security cameras? Really? Also can someone clarify for me if this Frat house was owned by Penn State, or on its property? Again, just curious.
Thanks
Its almost always hazing, its almost always at the houses.
Why not close the frat houses? Or at least impose some kind of probationary curfew or Marshall law. No living in the houses and no occupants between the hours of 1am and 7am. I know its extreme, but they created this mess.
I really can’t see why the frats should be closed down. Change needs to take place for sure, but frats don’t need to be completely eliminated.
I think Cobrat raised a good point, he mentioned how his father was raised and the ramification for poor behavior,
“Getting blitzingly drunk and pulling less than half of what these frats pulled would have meant immediate expulsion on judicial grounds for violating university rules on allowing oneself to drink to that point.”
I like this statement and agree with it. It puts the onus on the student- the drinker. It makes them responsible for their own actions. Thats where it all begins.
“I guess that confuses me because then I would assume that no one would ever contemplate this behavior when they knew they were being filmed. Yes, I know kids video tape things, but security cameras? Really? Also can someone clarify for me if this Frat house was owned by Penn State, or on its property? Again, just curious.”
The frat was on private property not school grounds.
Not sure why the camera was there - I had asked earlier if it was required by the national organization or insurance? Whether it is typical in greek houses? It is surprising that the frat members didn’t consider the camera when the events were taking place nor the they made efforts to cover things up. It seems to me it was a combination of both stupidity and impairment. Mainly stupidity, given they had the wherewithal to google medical questions and try to cover tracks by deleting phone history. But, if they were smarter, they would have made better decisions to avoid this predicament in the first place.
I often think this generation has so grown up with being filmed and social media that they don’t even think about it. I also don’t understand why those charged still have accessible social media accounts. Where’s the intelligence in that? I guess I’m just old school.