@bester1 That is a question that I have been wondering. I have seen comments on other blogs that the women guests spoke with Tim Piazza after the fall and he claimed that he “was okay”. If that is the case, they were certainly there by then interacting with him. In reading the timeline of the events, the women arrived shortly after the “gauntlet” so they could see what was happening. They certainly should have had, as was said in this piece, less to worry about calling for help as they did not share the host responsibility. They also would have been presumably less intoxicated if they came later and should have had the sense to intervene. It is puzzling to me also that the university has imposed strict social sanctions on ALL IFC and Panhel chapters; despite not being directly involved that night. However, there have been no restrictions on this particular group who was present the night Tim died and could have intervened. Instead, because of their designation as a non-Greek THON club, there has been no recourse. Seem like an inconsistent message coming from the university.
@MomfromPA15317 - The Trilogy group is not a recognized group by the university, IFC or Panhellenic council. Reports are that they are an “underground” sorority and are not governed by anyone.
Membership numbers have been increasing partially because there was a drop in popularity of greek organizations during the period I was an undergrad during the '90s.
And even with the membership increases in recent years, has that increase been to the extent they make up the majority of all US undergrads? Somehow, I doubt that.
If he told the women he was ok, you have to wonder if the bros heard that and assumed he did not require medical help. Or maybe Piazza told them directly.
Of course, his subsequent behavior did not support his being “ok”. At minimum, someone should have been assigned to him – before the fall down the stairs – to essentially babysit him. Give him lots of water, supervise bathroom trips, talk to him/keep him engaged, etc.
Nobody did that though. And certainly after he fell down the basement stairs, medical attention should have been sought, especially since he was obviously completely hammered and could not be trusted to self-evaluate. There could be internal injuries after a fall like that.
All night after that, there was sign after sign that the kid needed help, and nobody gave it to him. He drank way too much, way too fast – if he achieved a 0.35 BAC with one hour of drinking, he must have put down damn near 15 drinks. That’s plenty to keep even experienced revelers drunk, and they space those drinks out over the course of an afternoon and evening; you don’t slam that many all at once. That’s just asking for trouble.
This was not a responsible, or responsive, chapter. But they are not the norm, at least not in my experience.
At our fraternity, nobody was ever coerced into drinking. It was not a condition of pledging successfully, nor was it part of any of our rituals. Those who did so chose to do so.
We always had sober people at our parties because not everyone in our fraternity drank. My best man didn’t drink. Plenty of people got drunk, typically, but we had people there to suggest they walk home (UW is mostly a pedestrian campus), or get a cab, when they had had enough. We never had to carry anyone outside. The worst we saw was puke in our kitchen sink – for some reason, they never aimed for the side with the disposal.
We were able to control the level of drunkenness a bit more effectively because our parties featured beer and wop, not hard alcohol on its own. Now, wop does have hard alcohol in it, but it is diluted by things like citrus soda, various juices, kool-aid, etc.
One time we hosted a golf-themed party, at which there were nine “holes” – tables manned by one of us. Each table had a different alcohol beverage – gin, vodka, bourbon, scotch, tequila, etc. At each table, you could take a shot for a birdie, drink a beer for a par, or take a mixed drink for a bogey. People became inebriated, but everyone serving was sober (including myself). The winner scored -7 and won a green jacket. He walked home.
I think some of the keys to throwing a successful party that’s both fun and safe are: sober supervision, responsiveness when help is needed, and lack of easy access to hard alcohol – drinking beer, you can feel yourself fade gradually; converseky, you can take seven shots within half an hour, not feel a thing, and then all of a sudden you’ve fallen off a cliff in terms of the ability to function.
That is what happened to this kid. Nobody forced him to, but it appears it was required to successfully pledge, so there was some level of implied coercion; if there was supervision, it was not (likely) sober, nor was there enough of it; and this kid clearly needed help, but half-measures weren’t adequate for someone who had taken in as much alcohol as he had in that limited amount of time.
He needed to be babysat the moment they got back to the big living room – kept awake, given plenty of water, talked to, and not left alone until he had regained his balance. That would have required attention probably until around noon the next day, when his BAC might have fallen down into the single digits if he had been cared for properly. In the single digits, most people have regained enough coordination to walk fairly well, and you’re out of the woods in terms of passing out.
But they were drunk (or at least buzzing, .05-.08 or so…) too, and they had “seen this before”, and they couldn’t afford to get in trouble again. So they didn’t give him the attention he required and, after that was no longer enough, they failed to get him medical help in a timely manner. Terrible all around.
@jpc763 They are not members of IFC or Panhel. However, they are recognized by the university at a THON org. They are permitted to use campus facilities and recruit new members, etc as such. The university absolutely has the authority to rescind this recognition.
“I’m sure every university president would abolish them in an instant if they could.”
So, curious as to what folks think the barriers and challenges are to doing so - just banning them outright. The only serious one I can think of is driving them underground (like people describe here with the girls from Trilogy) where you would potentially have even less control over shenanigans.
Thoughts?
I think one of the big problems is that many times these Frats are not on the campus. How can you police something that isn’t yours to police? If they aren’t on campus property then you can’t outright ban them. Isn’t that the main problem with PSU?
If you abolish Greek Life all together, it will just rear its ugly head in another form. For example: I know someone who went to ND. They don’t have any greek life there but instead the sport teams all have their own off campus houses. At the end of the day, they are no different then a Frat. The same nonsense happens there that happens at all these Frats. ND can’t do anything about those houses either.
I am pretty sure that Amherst banned all fraternities – off campus frats as well. I believe it is considered a violation of the honor code to join or pledge any underground or off-campus fraternity or sorority — grounds for expulsion. That was an effort undertaken in 2014 so maybe someone with a student there can comment on how successful that ban has been.
^Maybe one of the issues would be the alumni. Irate alumni would not be donating, and the wealthy alumni can wield a lot of influence.
Actually, while public universities like Penn State may have serious issues banning organizations due to their being an arm of the government and subjected to constitutional restrictions/considerations, private universities are under no such constraints.
For instance, my LAC has banned fraternities/sororities and other secret societies/socially exclusive organizations since the 1870’s.
A component of that is a ban on students joining or maintaining membership in such organizations during their undergrad career as a condition of matriculation. Getting caught violating that ban can result in penalties upto and including expulsion according to college policies.
While underground organizations such as fraternities do exist off-campus* at my LAC, they aren’t very popular or appealing enough for more than a tiny minority of students to risk serious college sanctions including the possibility of being expelled.
- Disclosure: One of those underground fraternities attempted to recruit yours truly as a member. I wasn't interested and told them as much.
post #418 “…ordinary people commit horrible, monstrous acts with the proper social norms, incentives, conditioning. It is exactly because frats have a long history of making evil banal that they should be banned. From rape to segregation, they have a wretched history of making evil banal”
This makes me think about Milgram experiment, which demonstrated how obedience to authority figures (social norms, peer pressure etc…) by ordinary people led to Holocaust or similar events. A good explanation of why “normalizing” such student behavior due to its ubiquitousness on college campuses is totally unacceptable in a society
So much bad parenting in the world.
/sarcasm
Past hazing victim faults Penn State in Tim Piazza’s death…
http://www.philly.com/philly/education/fratstoryheadline.html
Although it happens other places, PSU history of lack of proactive response and denial is once again evident.
““I’m sure every university president would abolish them in an instant if they could.””
I don’t think that’s universal. A lot of university presidents depend on these organizations to house and orient students, create community, build alumni engagement, etc. It’s a big load taken off the university’s shoulders. A robust Greek system attracts out-of-state paying customers, too. This is working well for the bottom line at Alabama, Ole Miss, etc.
“So, curious as to what folks think the barriers and challenges are to doing so - just banning them outright.”
Yes, there’s a freedom of association issue with public schools like PSU. But enraged alumni are the big factor at private schools.
PSU is state related…not truly a public school and not truly a private school. That is why a middle class family spends $35 grand /year to send them to PSU instate.
Organization and administration[edit]
Penn State is a “state-related” university, part of Pennsylvania’s Commonwealth System of Higher Education. As such, although it receives funding from the Commonwealth and is connected to the state through its board of trustees, it is otherwise independent and not subject to the state’s direct control. For the 2006–2007 fiscal year, the university received 9.7 percent of its budget from state appropriations, the lowest of the four state-related institutions in Pennsylvania.[60] Initial reports concerning the 2007–2008 fiscal year indicated that Pennsylvania Governor Ed Rendell is recommending a 1.6 percent increase in state appropriations.[61] Penn State’s appropriation request, submitted to the Pennsylvania Department of Education in September, requested a 6.8 percent increase in funding.[62][needs update]
totally off topic, but it’s interesting that they chose to call it “Pennsylvania State University” when PA is a commonwealth. Maybe “Pennsylvania Commonwealth University” didn’t have a good ring?
It is unlikely the Greek system will go away. Greek alumni make up the majority of giving in many schools. Also when alums are spending millions of dollars on chapter houses they want to see their investment stay. I know our alumni would not be happy if our chapter shut down after they build us an $11 million dollar house.
Can you cite the source of this claim?
What brain science could reveal about Penn State fraternity tragedy…
Our Kids are drinking themselves to death…
http://www.philly.com/philly/columnists/helen_ubinas/Our-kids-are-drinking-themselves-to-death.html
@sylvan8798 …Interesting thought. PSU is state related which means they can accept state funds without oversight. It can take public funds yet operate like a private. It is fascinating and most people outside the “Commonwealth” do not know or understand this.