Almost all students at Penn State are good kids, some great, some just your basic young adults, neither better nor worse. Some made the choice not to join these fraternities, despite the recruiters and the hype. They’re probably less easily lead, or perhaps less desperate for connections or approval. They have no interest.
I think that blaming these students for what the administration or Greek life is doing or has done is extremely unfair.
Some students decide to join fraternities. They shouldn’t end up dead, impaired, humiliated, physically or psychologically harmed.
In addition, it seems clear most fraternities at Penn State lead to bad decisions and bad behavior, Penn State Greek leadership disregards the rules and fails at keeping people safe or even encourages recklessness and hazing. Let’s not forget this was supposed to be a “model” fraternity, so I can’t imagine what the others would be doing…
So, at this point I don’t see how fraternities at Penn State can not get some kind of collective penalty since they’ve been put on notice since Tim Piazza’s death and chose to ignore it. The university simply can’t “do nothing”. It tried to stamp things out with the new regulations (1 party a week per fraternity vs.3…) and the fraternities meekly nodded while keeping what they used to do. So they need to fix this because they don’t want parents to think “Penn State is a university where my kid could die”.
Regarding presence:
Absolutely not for the fraternity chapter. Perhaps a note from the National Board.
University: they should have asked the parents and sent representatives.
I assume individual students were there.
@jpc763 - I have been involved in scouting as a parent and leader for 20 years and have never encountered hazing, although I will not say that it doesn’t occur in some areas. I reread my response and owe you an apology. I didn’t mean to imply that you were equating the picking up garbage/singing/pushups acts you described in scouting with the gauntlet Tim Piazza and his fellow pledges were exposed to at pledge night. I do agree that hazing occurs in many settings other than fraternities - the marching band in the Florida college, the a capella singing group at Cornell. even on a 7th grade sports teams and the cheer leading squads in my school district.
"Last week, Pennsylvania State University ordered its chapter of Kappa Delta Rho fraternity to shut down after a two-month suspension for allegedly posting photos of nude women, some of whom appeared to be unconscious, on a private Facebook page.
Reports like these have become depressingly familiar. In just the spring semester of 2015, 133 fraternity and sorority chapters at 55 U.S. colleges were shut down, suspended, or otherwise punished after alleged offenses including excessive partying, hazing, racism, and sexual assault, according to reports compiled by Bloomberg."
Note: alleged hazing instances, 29 for the months of 1/1/15 to 5/20/15.
Someone above mentioned whether the doctors will testify at trial. I can’t imagine why you’d take this to trial – in front of a jury in Pa. which will surely include some parents and some people with brain development beyond age 21 – I think you’d take any plea you could get no matter how bad. But with 18 defendants, I suppose at least one/his parents will feel he’s wronged and insist on their day in court. In that case, yes there will be doctor testimony. Likely from the doctors who told Timothy’s parents that if had received care within a few hours of being injured, the outcome would have been different; as well as the doctors (maybe it’s the same people) whose testimony was in the presentment saying that Tim’s injuries were very painful for him and he likely could feel the pain the entire time.
One thing that I thought was weird when I was in college 15 yrs ago – but haven’t thought about since – is that you don’t go through frat pledging with your friends. Sure you start off going to the rush parties with your dorm buddies as you go house to house to check it out. But ultimately you and all your friends can (and often do) get bids to pledge different houses. I realize the purpose is that you will make new friends as your pledge brothers form a brotherhood – but the reality is this is MUCH different than the advice we always give kids – go to parties with a buddy; look out for each other; don’t leave without them etc. So here you are with bunch of new guys who you don’t know – being forced to drink etc. – and every pledge is so desperate to get into the frat and so worried about looking good to the current brothers, that they aren’t really looking out for their pledge brothers at all. Nor do they have any incentive to stick their neck out there for a guy they just met (well - human decency would be an incentive but clearly that’s hit or miss).
That was clearly the case for Tim’s pledge brothers. There are group texts from after he was taken to the hospital – and the pledges are discussing what they’d tell police if it comes down to that etc. – and a few of them said something about – say we found him and 10 am and called 911 instantly bc “the kid’s health was paramount etc.” Um – the kid? He’s your “brother” who you pledged with for weeks who fell down 6+ times, looked super ill and was carted off in an ambulance – do you not know his name or do you not care? Also seems that no one went with him to the hospital - pledges or regular “brothers” – or even bothered to pull up his emergency contact form (which all pledges have to fill out before starting the pledge process) to reach out to his parents/contact person. There’s tons of info in the presentment re texts about how much trouble they/the frat is in; what to tell cops etc. but not one mention of any call made by anyone re Tim’s condition.
What if Tim’s roommate hadn’t called his actual brother? What if the older brother hadn’t gotten worried and called the ER? How on earth would they have found him? I mean I’m sure ERs have a process for this – but for someone in his condition, what if it had taken hours and neither his parents nor his brother knew to get there asap??
I’m not really all that optimistic that this tragedy will bring any meaningful change. The administration already has had plenty of notice of what’s going on at various fraternities. And it looks like Beta Theta Pi was already suspended in 2009. They were permitted to re-open but with the agreement that they would be a dry fraternity. Well they ignored that condition and again were disciplined in 2013. Guess the consequences for the last infraction weren’t severe enough given this current tragedy.
The university also has 2 civil lawsuits (soon to be 3) pending against them from 2 former students who allege some pretty outrageous hazing activities. If even some small portion of those allegation are factual, the administration should have stepped in and really cracked down on the hazing activity. Seems like it is just an exercise in utter humiliation that no young man should be exposed to.
PSU recently went on record stating they were aware of 170 fraternity misconduct cases filed since the spring of 2015. That’s a big number. So clearly there has to be recognition by administrators that there is an issue --but here they are again in the news. Must be very frustrating to those who have been negatively affected. They are fighting what appears to be an uphill battle against a system that is just too engrained.
@pilot2012 “133 fraternity and sorority chapters at 55 U.S. colleges were shut down, suspended, or otherwise punished after alleged”
I think it important to note that of the 133, one single incident was a sorority. I could only find Kappa Kappa Gamma at OU. This problem is not pervasive among women. It is a vastly a fraternity issue. It bothers me that NPC groups are bearing these sanctions when none were involved at PSU, and lumped in with the IFC chapters in comments like this. Of the thousands of NPC chapters across the country, to have one chapter closed for hazing in a year is not an epidemic.
@aj725 What is important to understand is that these pledges DID NOT know one another. This was bid acceptance night, not initiation. This is the night that you MEET your pledge class not the night that after 6 weeks together you have formed your bond. No one in the chapter really knew Tim. In Kordell Davis’ interview, he said that he had spoken with him for about 20 minutes, discussing how they both played football in HS. That is the extent of their interaction. I am not saying that you should not, out of human decency, help a stranger but they were hardly brothers.
During the recruitment parties, they talk superficially for a few minutes just to get a “feel” for the person. Through those 3 recruitment events, there could have been 100 potential new members coming through the door that each person talked to for 5 minutes. This is hardly enough time to make a connection. They selected the 14 and invited them to become pledges where they would get to know them over the course of the semester.
Had it been an active member of the chapter who had real friends in the group, who knows what they may have done to jump to his help. Because this was the first night that they met Tim, they had not had time to know if this was his MO.
Believe me, I am not defending their lack of human decency, but I am hoping to help clarify why they likely referred to him as “the kid”. Think about if you started a new job tomorrow with 14 new hires, it would take you a little while to get to know everyone’s names and make friends among the group.
^you may be correct that the pledges did not know each other but in my experience potential pledges had already got to know each other through social/recreational and party type events. That is how they arrived at deciding who received bids. It is likely that the pledges already bonded at some significant level.
@bester1 While my experience is from a sorority side and I have never been at a fraternity rush party, I would suspect that is not the case. There are typically more potential new members (pnms) than members at an event, especially the initial open ones. It is the job of the brothers to try and talk to as many of the pnms as possible so that they can vote on who will be extended a bid. In the presentment, they discussed there having been 3 rush events that Beta had hosted. That does not mean that all of the other rushs were at the same events because sometimes they are going to different houses at the same time trying to narrow down the selection process.
If the other 13 were there at the same time, they would have likely been conversing with brothers who would be voting on them vs. getting to know other pnms. If there were interactions, it would have been relatively superficial over that short period of time. They were just starting to get to know one another. It would be extremely unlikely that they would have “already bonded at some significant level”. That is not how it happens.
I don’t know the Beta chapter size but at least 40 lived in the house. There are always more that do not. Let’s say there were 70 brothers and 50 rushes. At a recruitment event that lasts a couple of hours, there is simply no way that you get to know anyone well in that environment. It is like the difference between a first date, and being married to someone for years. a very different relationship exists even when you “like” the person on the first date.
The bonding occurs during the pledge period which, sadly, never took place in this instance and then through shared experiences after initiation (which would have taken place near the end of the semester). Unless you know someone prior to pledging, the people standing next to you on bid night are complete strangers.
There are several others, such as Tri-Delta at Indiana this spring. But your point is well taken that NPC sororities do an incomparably better job of risk management than do NIC fraternities. The chapters are supervised more closely and dangerous chapters are shut down before anybody gets hurt.
@MomfromPA15317
I am totally baffled.
So not “knowing” and not being “besties” with this boy gave the “brothers” license to watch him die?
People stop on the street for hurt or down strangers and call 911.
Not only did they force him to drink, they also caused him to die.
What use is a “Fraternity” if its only purpose is to torture and kill teenagers?
Where is the value system of self proclaimed “brotherhood”
People stop on the street to rescue injured dogs
This boy was treated worse than a stray dog, by his “fraternity brothers”
“Bonatucci faces the most serious charges of aggravated assault and involuntary manslaughter, along with seven other brothers for their alleged roles in the death of Piazza, who died two days after suffering injuries at a pledging event at the fraternity house.”
Why? There were far worse actions than just serving beer. Was he the one who pushed the frat member who wanted to call an ambulance?
@bester1 I don’t think thats the case. When I rushed, the house I joined had over 600 people rush their house. And with 90 actives at the time the rushees only talked to actives not with each other, that’s how you get a bid. Recruitment lasted 1 week 4 hours a day and I didn’t know any of my future pledge bros until the day I accepted my bid and even then it was very brief. I really didn’t get to start knowing my pledge class of 49 until pledging started and it took time.
@Hanna, I was responding to the article cited. But, yes the Tri-Delt chapter at IU was shut down this year by their nationals, who have not specified a reason for the closure. They were not in trouble with the IU administration. There was no hazing cited. It was simply that they were not meeting Tri-Delt expectations.
As a chapter adviser, I have seen issues with insubordination, financial mismanagement, low numbers etc cited as reasons for chapters being put on probation with their nationals. It could have been any number of issues that relate to the relationship between the advisers, national offices and collegians. But, it is nothing like what has been cited at fraternities.
NPC organizations, as you said, do a much better job of working closely with the collegians to make sure that risk management and leadership policies are adhered to. I hate seeing them lumped in with and penalized because of the IFC’s issues.
Every time I see a blanket generalization about “sororities and fraternities” like this, it makes me crazy. It is NOT sororities and they should not be facing restricted recruitment and other sanctions as are being imposed by PSU, or be included in disparaging remarks directed toward the Greek community.
“It was simply that they were not meeting Tri-Delt expectations.”
You don’t shut down a chapter that old, big, respected, and rich at a nationally ranked flagship like IU without a risk problem. (Ditto Kappa Alpha Theta at Michigan.) You’re right that we don’t know and won’t know what sort of risk it was. But insubordination is itself a type of risk – chapters that ignore rules are chapters where people can get hurt.
“Believe me, I am not defending their lack of human decency, but I am hoping to help clarify why they likely referred to him as “the kid”. Think about if you started a new job tomorrow with 14 new hires, it would take you a little while to get to know everyone’s names and make friends among the group.”
This was in specific response to a question as to why they were referring to Tim by something other than his name in their text exchanges.
I agree with you. If I saw a stranger in need, I would not hesitate to help. I don’t think there is a reasonable explanation for them not calling 911, other than being scared, which is inconsequential compared to saving a life. However, I was trying to put the relationships in context at that point in time. They were not “brothers”. They were strangers-- who acted carelessly.
I believe this is dictated by the IFC/Pan-Hellenic council, but all sororities at my college had house mothers while fraternities had no adult supervision. Sorority events were also invitation only unless it was for something like a “big brother rush” party, but the house mother was always there and they were tame events.
I’ve read that it used to be common to have a house parent/director at fraternities a long time ago, but this died out at some point. I wonder if bringing them back as a requirement would solve a lot of the problems we see at fraternities that are almost non-existent at sororities. Take dozens of young males living in a house together with no adult supervision, throw in alcohol, and you’re bound to have problems.