We – well, most of us, anyway – know better than to victim-blame rape victims. Blaming Piazza for his death is ridiculous. Was he asking for it?
Frat culture isn’t awful at all schools, but Penn State’s recent history is disgusting. What will motivate the school to change might be when the school has to pay out so much money for raped and dead teenagers that it doesn’t equal the amount those proud alums donate every year.
I haven’t seen the video. Did they hold him down and pour the booze down his throat? Did they roofie him before handing him drinks? If not, he wasn’t “forced” to drink.
To some degree, this strikes me as similar to the classic situation where a bunch of kids get very drunk and pile into a car. They get into an accident and someone dies. The parents of the dead kid call for the blood of the driver. Their kid was just as drunk. Their kid chose to get into the car knowing that the driver was drunk. If their kid had happened to be the driver that night–as he or she may well have been on prior drunken nights–the shoe would be on the other foot.
But no, they want the driver to assume every single little bit of responsibility and crucify him or her as a monster.
I’m not blaming Piazza for his death. I reject your comparison.
I am also not minimizing the responsibility and guilt of those who didn’t get him help.
@consolation there’s a very detailed description of what happened at https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/11/a-death-at-penn-state/540657/
The sequence of events for Tim begins about 3/4 of the way down the page, after the photo of the letterman jacket.
@Consolation, you can’t possibly say that, nowadays, with what we know, coercion is only defined by being held down or roofied.
Yes he chose a fraternity. A fraternity supposedly dry and exemplary. And by the time the non dry and non exemplary stuff became egregious, he was “in”
The pressure was there to conform, follow, do as told, not be a rat, respect traditions, show his strength, all that crap they use to brainwash young men, along with the sweeter part that you’ve made friends, and they all do this, so you do it because what makes you special, and if you leave you lose your friends. Hazed kids act like brainwashed cult members and harm themselves. It take a lot for them to step back and realize they’re being abused. It doesn’t mean they aren’t abused, or that they made the choice. The horrible stuff is always done when they’re too brainwashed to realize what’s going on, never right away when they’re not “in” yet and would leave.
I think that is why what is being discussed is a stretch for manslaughter and I am guessing it will play out that way with s new judge. I have a hard time imagining any judge broadening the meaning of mAnslaughter to include this. We Hazing and supplying alcohol to a minor most likely will stick for some of the group.
What about intentionally denying him emergency medical care as he slowly died over a 12 hour period because they wanted to cover it up, then tampering with evidence by attempting to delete the video evidence and then lying and claiming it was broken and lying about what happened? Telling him he had to drink to be in the fat was only the start of their crimes.
That’s like saying that women who are sexually harassed or abused at work are not “forced” to endure it. They can jus leave, right? But we all know it’s not that simple.
“That’s like saying that women who are sexually harassed or abused at work are not “forced” to endure it.”
No, I don’t think that joining a college social club and earning a living are very much alike.
Isn’t it possible for every adult in the story to be responsible for their own choices? If the fraternity brothers had “forced” a pledge to destroy college property, he’d be criminally and financially liable for his own actions, just the same as if he had acted on his own. The brothers might be accessories to the crime and get the same punishment, but that wouldn’t absolve the pledge.
It’s not complicated. Piazza was an idiot who shouldn’t have been drinking at all let alone accepting the challenge of all those drinks. He had personal responsibility for that. But the frat members who pushed the drinks on him and illegally hazed and created the situation where if you wanted to be part of their group you were required to accept the drinks were completely morally and criminally wrong and should share responsibility for any consequences. It’s not a zero sum game where it’s either Piazza responsible or them. They all are. Piazza already died as a consequence of his shared actions. Criminal charges are certainly a lesser consequence for the rest of those responsible… And the members who then actively prevented him from receiving emergency medical assistance which may have been the difference between him living and dying absolutely should be charged for his death. Those who erased the tape and lied about what happened absolutely should receive the fullest consequence the law allows for those crimes.
@MYOS1634 I think that the idea that Piazza had no idea that there was a lot of alcohol at this supposedly dry frat is ridiculous. So is the idea that he had no idea that he would be hazed.
Everyone knows. And he was a sophomore, for doG’s sake.
I’m sure he expected to be hazed. I’m sure that he knew which houses had a reputation for harder hazing, and which didn’t. Kids know. I’m sure that he expected what went on during that hazing to be kept among themselves. That’s the deal. Everyone knows. He had to know that he would be expected to join in hazing future pledge classes. Everyone knows. Yet he chose to participate. Why?
I’m equally sure that he didn’t expect to be killed, or allowed to die. The fact that he chose to submit to hazing does not in any way excuse those who chose to do it or absolve them of responsibility. Nor does it absolve those who failed to get him medical help or actively impeded it. They didn’t “mean” him to die. But they actively made choices that let it happen. It seems very likely that they had seen many a pledge lying unconscious on a couch and had done nothing other than crudely try to wake him and then decided to let him sleep it off. They were all lucky those times. This time, they weren’t. Yet they chose to participate. Why?
Why does any kid join in this voluntarily, like the band guy in FL who chose to subject himself to the beating that killed him?
This is different from someone who is hazed or abused unwillingly at work or by a sports team when they have to join that team in order to participate in the sport.
Why do people actively seek this out? Is there any way to inoculate them against it, or is it too deeply buried in the human psyche?
@OHMomof2 , thanks, I read that excellent Atlantic article a while ago. Perhaps I am mistaken, but I thought that there were some additional video tapes that had come out since then.
@citivas, no one is excusing that despicable behavior in the slightest.
“It’s not a zero sum game where it’s either Piazza responsible or them. They all are.”
Right. For 75 pages or so, there wasn’t much said about Piazza bearing any responsibility at all. He and his family paid such a terrible price. No one wants to add to their pain.
To the extent that we’re trying to protect other young people, though, and create better policy for the future, we ought to examine all the factors that contribute to these tragedies. Poor decision-making by pledges probably goes on that list along with university silence, bad alumni leadership, weak punishments for criminal activity, etc.
The university has released the latest Greek Report Card…the link is just to fraternitiies, but there is also one for sororities.
Penn State fraternity brother, 19, is found dead in his dorm room following a ‘drug-related incident’ less than a year after a pledge died after a drunken hazing ritual…
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5257045/Penn-State-student-dead-dorm-room.html
Student Found Dead In Miller Hall Monday Night…
https://onwardstate.com/2018/01/09/student-found-dead-in-miller-hall-monday-night/
"Alpha Tau Omega released a statement Wednesday on the death of student William Denton, who was found dead in his Eastview Terrace dorm room Monday night.
“Alpha Tau Omega sends its deepest sympathy to the family of William Denton,” ATO National CEO Wynn Smiley said via email. “Will’s chapter-mates, all alumni of the Gamma Omega chapter and ATOs across the nation mourn his tragic loss. Will joined ATO in the fall of 2016.”
Penn State student William Denton found dead in Miller Hall, coroner tells Collegian (UPDATED)
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/news/borough/article_cb0bc174-f5a0-11e7-a5e1-ef19dfb828a6.html
Nine face charges in Florida State University fraternity death…
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/face-charges-florida-state-university-fraternity-death-article-1.3761475
While it could be said that Piazza’s decision to drink played a part and the fraternity’s decision to instigate hazing practices definitely played a part, I think these are poor decisions that are in the gray.
HOWEVER, a line was crossed. That line, IMO, was when the fraternity brothers knew one of their own was in trouble and, rather than seeking help for him, left him to die. This is not a “poor decision” brought on by naïve teenage thinking. This is a conscious choice that they wanted to cover up their tracks to protect themselves. Thus, I believe this is the act for which they should be tried. It is human nature to try and save someone from peril, not to stand there and let them die when you have the power to save them.
It is this line that is the difference between the Piazza case and a carload of drunk teenagers in an accident, or a student falling from a window high in a dorm. If Piazza had gone back to his room alone, I think the circumstances would be a bit different with less liability on the frat. But, he didn’t. He was there. They knew he was in trouble. They did nothing to try and help him but everything to try and help themselves.
" It is human nature to try and save someone from peril, not to stand there and let them die when you have the power to save them."
There are generally no legal consequences for bystanders for not assisting a person in peril unless their actions put the person in peril in the first place or they assumed the responsibility for the person and then did nothing or there is a state statute that defines when “duty to rescue” arises.
Boys Will Be Boys…
https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/boys-will-boys/
Former DA’s final motion for new judge in Beta Theta Pi case denied…
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/news/borough/article_c2a3e9be-fc97-11e7-bf4a-7b2c3aa04cec.html
What does this mean?