“If college students could go to a bar and order beer, it’d change a lot of things for the better…it’d even fuel new small businesses in college towns”
Better yet, bring back the university tavern then kids won’t drink and drive. Sure, we still got drunk back in the day, but better doing it in the open while playing quarters with pitchers of beer than pregaming freshmen sneaking it in their dorm rooms and hitting the hard stuff to get a quick buzz on.
Also, people who have any opinion remotely akin to “these boys aren’t monsters” should read the entire presentment. this is way, way, waaaaaaay beyond even a shadow of normalcy. The perps were not drunk, they were not clueless, they were not ignorant. They were criminal, even evil.
The minimal legal drinking age in both Chinas is 18*.
There’s really no equivalent of fraternities/sororities…especially the aspect of encouraging college aged students to deliberately get wasted or acting like remedial candidates for the romper room.
Granted, a large part of that is strong-social and peer pressure against such behaviors among youth/young adults…especially considering such behavior is commonly associated there…or in other Asian societies with behaviors of older middle aged/senior men with ne’er do well tendencies. Not exactly the epitome of cool.
While it’s ok to have a drink or few, getting drunk…especially to the point of behaving like a drunken idiot/rowdy type isn’t tolerated by peers or authorities and will be punished harshly and be subject to negative social opprobrium.
Also, if one’s wasted, unlike in certain US subcultures, getting wasted/acting like a drunken rowdy/idiot isn’t regarded as a demonstration of machismo. Instead, it’d be regarded as a sign one’s “too weak” to really hold one’s own liquor and thus, be laughingly dismissed as a lightweight.
I think most aware parents would agree with that doschicos.
People don’t acknowledge enough the natural controlled experiment we run with the Canadian universities. Other than McGill, most of the universities Americans go to are located in drinking age 19 jurisdictions.
That said, my daughter’s BFF was an undergraduate at McGill. She was not in the least a teetotaler (being my daughter’s BFF). On Thursday of her orientation week, she texted my daughter more or less the following:
“I am now hanging out exclusively with the Communist Youth. Party discipline dictates that they are not allowed to drink. If I never see another drunk boy in my life, it will be too soon.”
Within a month or so, however, things had calmed down a lot, and remained calm thereafter. Her (literal and figurative) flirtation with Communism ended even before that. But it’s not as if McGill was entirely free from binge drinking.
@greenbutton: equivocally or unequivocally?
I believe that calling humans “monsters” absolves them and us. They’re not “monsters” in that they’re just like us, but made choices we would never make. They’re humans who committed a crime.
The kid fell 15 feet TWICE if I read correctly. Tried to escape and find help. Was punched into a huge bruise due to a ruptured spleen.
I had a couple friends at McGill actually and I definitely got that impression from them.
This whole situation really sucks.
This is always going to come back to the unreasonably high drinking age, especially for wine/beer/low alcohol beverages! This also ties into the fact people don’t call the police when overdoses or injuries happen because they’re worried about being prosecuted - and this should not be the case!
IMO, if a fraternity is not conducting some sort of social service or has some sort of higher purpose besides being a private drinking house, it doesn’t need to exist. I’ve been to frat parties. Both as a 15 year old high school kid and as a college-age kid. The only way to get into a good frat party is to 1. Know someone or 2. Have a >1:1 girl:guy ratio in your group. That alone speaks volumes to me.
For the record, I’m not saying everybody in a fraternity is shady - but we sure as hell wouldn’t have this problem if students could drink in normal settings.
“At this point, our kids go to WVU out of state for less than they can go to PSU in state. Still, there are so many great programs there and I would love to feel confident sending my kid there in a couple of years. Pull it together PSU!!!”
FYI, WVU had a frat hazing death in 2014…
Just saw a Penn State official being interviewed on the news. He said something like “I don’t think Penn State has any culpability at all. We don’t own the property, the organization is not ours”.
It was sickening. Deny, deny, deny. Protect the franchise. Keep the donations coming in.
When the administration is morally bankrupt, (as it also was with the Sandusky and Paterno matter), it sets the tone for the whole community.
@philbegas My son, a McGill alumnus, told me that a joke on campus is that at Frosh week it was easy to tell who the new American students were. They were the ones passed out on the lawn at noon. Not true but it was an indication of how some students react to freedom.
Better to be passed out on a campus lawn at noon among strangers than to be passed out in a frat house basement at midnight surrounded by your “brothers”.
One of the people I knew was Canadian and one was from my high school in Berkeley. I’d bet 10 bucks the american one was one of those people passed out hah. But to be fair she was irresponsible to begin with. However, everytime I saw her during breaks, she seemed to have it more together.
Yes my kids have relayed many a story about never-drank-before freshmen…
There are a lot of issues and hospitalizations and alcohol poisonings and blackouts and broken bones - they just all don’t make the national news.
On the issue of hazing - it’s not acceptable at all, ever. It’s not supposed to be happening
Even if they go through the system with no issues - does the system really need to exist? What benefit exactly do fraternities provide that less exclusive housing cannot?
This is Penn State first hazing death. Let me say, “FIRST” there have been other colleges that have multiple deaths caused by hazing. Why is that when Penn State hits national news media, everyone blames at the school?
I have a question: Will you drink if you’re buddies forced you to? I would not and it be better off losing those friends because people who force you to do things aren’t your friends.
@NASA2014 Because had had several bad national ness mentions in the past few years.
How many does it take for it to be an issue?
Personally, I think one is too many.
Before people start to put down Penn State, I just want to say that my D who attends a school in the South, where Greek life is central to the everything on the campus, said that this is horrible but she could absolutely see this happening anywhere Frats exist. Therefore, I don’t think its fair to put Penn State down and no I don’t think they are at fault.
The fault begins with the fact that kids have to learn to say “NO”. Lets face it, this would never have happened if Piazza just said “NO”. At some point, young men have to start to say, “I want to be in a Frat but this behavior isn’t necessary, nor acceptable.” Once enough young men, learn to stand up for what they know is the right thing to do, the hazing will cease. Im not saying it easy and I’m not condoning the behavior of the Frat brothers, but it did all start with one person, allowing himself to get horrifically drunk.
This is a terrible terrible story. My heart goes out to his family. But honestly, Im sad for all the others too. There are so many victims in this story, its heart wrenching.
“The fault begins with the fact that kids have to learn to say “NO”. Lets face it, this would never have happened if Piazza just said “NO”. At some point, young men have to start to say, “I want to be in a Frat but this behavior isn’t necessary, nor acceptable.” Once enough young men, learn to stand up for what they know is the right thing to do, the hazing will cease.”
Amen.
unfortunately, many people are afraid to say no.
I thought the saddest commentary on the entire situation came from the Piazza’s attorney who said that “Tim just wanted to fit in…”